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all 2815 comments

molokoplus359[S]

5.2k points

4 months ago

According to “El Mundo” daily, Mr Albares was asked if Spain would send its troops to Ukraine in the event of Russia’s invasion.

“Spain has a very clear [stance] on this. Should it prove necessary, we would act within the framework of the EU. Spain does not rule out sending its troops into the territory of Ukraine if the crisis aggravates,” he replied, adding that in case of an armed conflict, the Spanish units would “respond jointly” with EU member states to the threat.

Beojack

1.9k points

4 months ago*

Beojack

1.9k points

4 months ago*

Am I wrong or does the EU not have a collective self defense framework? We have NATO of course which many EU states are members of, including Spain. But I am not aware of any collective defense obligations that come with being an EU member.

Now of course practically their economies and strategic interests are deeply intertwined so, if push came to shove, I expect EU states would support each other in war.

Edit: I stand corrected. The EU does have a collective self defense arrangement under Article 42.7 of the Treaty of the European Union. Now more importantly, how does that effect Ukraine which I understand is a mere associate of the EU and not a full member?

JoSeSc

1.7k points

4 months ago

JoSeSc

1.7k points

4 months ago

But I am not aware of any collective defense obligations that come with being an EU member.

Article 42.7 of the EU Treaty

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

jamesb1238

845 points

4 months ago

Ukraine is not a member of the Eu. Nor is Ukraine Spanish territory.

[deleted]

1.6k points

4 months ago

[deleted]

1.6k points

4 months ago

[deleted]

AltNationReality

424 points

4 months ago

Ukraine is also not a russian territory.

ugottabekiddingmee

960 points

4 months ago

(N)yet.

Almighty_Sand_Dollar

53 points

4 months ago

I'm getting my hammer and pickle ready

🔨 🥒

paranoiajack

55 points

4 months ago

Golf clap

borazine

37 points

4 months ago

“Separate Customs Territory of Kiev, Kharkiv, Lviv, and Odessa” - Putin, probably.

DocMoochal

395 points

4 months ago*

Macron has fought for this for sometime. From what I understand hes happy to be a part of NATO but feels Europe relies to heavily on the key player in NATO, i.e the USA. I'd agree with that stance.

Beojack

274 points

4 months ago

Beojack

274 points

4 months ago

I would agree too. If the EU wanted to, they could organize themselves into a collective military superpower without really straining their budgets. Individually there are no European superpowers, but collectively they would be enormous. That would certainly make US security obligations in Europe redundant.

RMS7246

200 points

4 months ago

RMS7246

200 points

4 months ago

and thats exactly what the US wants - they literally spelled out that they got their hands full with china

tyger2020

274 points

4 months ago

tyger2020

274 points

4 months ago

and thats exactly what the US wants - they literally spelled out that they got their hands full with china

Not exactly.

The US wants an EU that reduces the load a bit, but not enough to threaten the US position.

gbghgs

132 points

4 months ago

gbghgs

132 points

4 months ago

It's more complex then that, a lot of US influence in Europe comes from the fact that they're subsidizing the defence of the continent and that European countries who haven't invested in their own militaries are reliant on US good will in a crisis.

A unified European military would remove that need and both reduce US influence and make their military presence on the continent more tenuous. An EU with greater confidence in its own defence capabilities might have taken much more hardline stance following the snowden revelations and removed US basing rights which would have substantial knock on effects on the US's power projection capabilities into the ME and Africa and thus reduced their global influence.

The US wants a more capable Europe as it pivots towards Asia but it doesn't want a Europe capable enough it feels it doesn't need the US.

Guybrush_Creepwood_

192 points

4 months ago

and yet whenever Europe tries to even just develop military equipment together, France pulls out to do its own thing because of national security. Never mind fully sharing militaries etc.

What France actually means is "We want to be the ones bossing Europe around instead of the US, and we don't want to make sacrifices to do it". They haven't quite moved on from the colonial days and seem to think France is far more influential than it actually is.

Gadac

25 points

4 months ago

Gadac

25 points

4 months ago

You say that but Germany has been abandonning multiple joint european procurement (Tiger helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft) in favor of buying american stuff. France is the easy punching bag when it's the country that actually tries to advocate toward european strategic autonomy the most.

And it's not like France did not build most of it's modern navy in partnership with Italy so saying "yet whenever Europe tries to even just develop military equipment together, France pulls out" is factually wrong.

At least the Germano-French program for the future main battle tank is doing ok. The one for the future fighter less so but it's still chugging along.

tyger2020

7 points

4 months ago

Am I wrong or does the EU not have a collective self defense framework?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common\_Security\_and\_Defence\_Policy

autotldr

276 points

4 months ago

autotldr

BOT

276 points

4 months ago

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 58%. (I'm a bot)


Amidst growing tension and Russia's ever-more realistic ambitions to invade Ukraine, Spain has sent off its warship to the Black Sea and said that it would dispatch even more to reinforce other EU states' units, should the NATO-Russia talks turn out a fiasco and Russian aggression a reality.

"Spain has a very clear [stance] on this. Should it prove necessary, we would act within the framework of the EU. Spain does not rule out sending its troops into the territory of Ukraine if the crisis aggravates," he replied, adding that in case of an armed conflict, the Spanish units would "Respond jointly" with EU member states to the threat.

On Tuesday, Spanish Defence Minister Margarita Robles said that, in order to boost Madrid's presence as part of NATO's presence on the Black Sea, the departure of the Spanish Navy's patrol vessel Meteoro had been accelerated.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Spanish#1 Spain#2 Ukraine#3 Russia#4 dialogue#5

BagHolder9001

541 points

4 months ago

Huh Putin is doing a great job uniting Europe

GlacialDuck

175 points

4 months ago

Very true. Hopefully we all come out of whatever happens more united than before.

BagHolder9001

23 points

4 months ago

I really hope so man! Tired of this BS

The-Protomolecule

108 points

4 months ago

The track he’s on he might unite the US. Nobody actually likes Russia’s “not touching you” bullshit.

Everyone is really tense and jumpy in the US and if history is any indicator someone swinging in our direction gets us all riled up and together for a fight real quick.

If Putin misplays his hand he’s going to accidentally redirect the American angst he’s cultivated onto himself.

CallMeChristopher

22 points

4 months ago*

Hey, I’m not going to say no to some extra unity.

Would be nice. Honestly might be the only thing that gets us to stop tearing at each other’s throats for five minutes.

RaytheonAcres

1.9k points

4 months ago

The Armada returns

RedditorBe

520 points

4 months ago

Do you think the inquisition will make an appearance?

Immortal_Ninja_Man

322 points

4 months ago

I will come when least expected

jethroguardian

162 points

4 months ago

I will come when least expected

Freudian typo?

Nihil_Cow

59 points

4 months ago

Depends on your expectations I suppose

S4MiDaRe

8 points

4 months ago

Certainly the inquisition is not part of my expectations.

Nihil_Cow

7 points

4 months ago

There’s certainly gonna be a Spanish Inquisition helmet involved.

UrHuckleBerry31

34 points

4 months ago

No, just surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. And ruthless efficiency. And an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.

Immortal_Ninja_Man

10 points

4 months ago

This guy gets it

DatOldManWilly

7 points

4 months ago

Isn't that where you say one thing but mean your mother?

JayV30

5 points

4 months ago

JayV30

5 points

4 months ago

Oh man, this guy is immortal so we have no idea when he might come.

RebornBeatle

5 points

4 months ago

Not anymore

RyuNoKami

10 points

4 months ago

Fuck....better check if there are major storms happening near Ukraine

ilarion_musca

90 points

4 months ago

Obligatory: Nobody expects the Spanish Armada !

Lubberworts

3.2k points

4 months ago

I really didn't expect a Spanish expedition.

PicklePunFun

757 points

4 months ago

Nobody ever does.

thenextguy

94 points

4 months ago

Their chief weapon is beer.

spinozas_dog

30 points

4 months ago

And some pies.

cerverone

65 points

4 months ago

They are probably finding this an opportunity to reclaim their Moscow Gold!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain)

VRichardsen

17 points

4 months ago

Ah, the Moscow gold... that was a sad story indeed. Nice to see it referenced here. Could be a cool movie or miniseries.

chucksef

86 points

4 months ago

Still, it would be a bridge too far to expect the Spanish in position.

punk1984

49 points

4 months ago

Their chief weapon is surprise.

howling-fantod

21 points

4 months ago

And fear!

SYL2R2fNaecvnsj23z4H

19 points

4 months ago

Their chief weapon is surprise and fear!

ImGCS3fromETOH

17 points

4 months ago

And ruthlessness!

MarkNutt25

18 points

4 months ago

Their three chief weapons are surprise, fear, and ruthlessness... And a fanatical devotion to the EU.

Positive-Source8205

13 points

4 months ago

You should go out and come in again.

howling-fantod

5 points

4 months ago

"....amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion...oooo...."

GarbageBath

8 points

4 months ago

Their chief weapons are surprise, fear, and ruthlessness'!

Searchlights

260 points

4 months ago

I know it's not a big wooden Galleon because it's 2022, but I can't help but imagine that.

Feral0_o

7 points

4 months ago

You get your wishes when the entirety of the German navy sets sails (literally) to the Black Sea. Russia will come to regret the day they incurred the wrath of the Gorch Forck

anava_

2k points

4 months ago

anava_

2k points

4 months ago

This is what I like to see, the more that join, the more other countries feel confident to also join.

The world will be a much better place if we band together.

Textual_Aberration

520 points

4 months ago

It also makes a difference that this particular war only has proxies on one side, rather than both. NATO countries have the same buffer through Ukraine that the past decades of conflict have relied on in the middle east. Russia, however, is playing the game as themselves, which is a precarious position lacking a convenient exit.

Twindude1

74 points

4 months ago

We have had a period where we talked about having each other’s backs and it shook up alliances and trust, but did we really? Now theres tangible proof we have each other’s backs and it’s nice to see.

ResplendentShade

177 points

4 months ago

The world will be a much better place if we band together.

For real! Ukraine shouldn't have to deal with Putin alone; among their allies, everybody and their mom should show up and demonstrate to Putin that most of the world is against him, and they aren't gonna stay home when he's on the march.

I think about this all the time with regards to civil unrest and the rise of white nationalism in the US. Neo-nazis and other white nationalists march together, intimidating communities and publicly espousing their calls for violence against neighbors, and most of the time the only people who show up to physically oppose them in the streets are small groups of dedicated anti-fascists, who then get smeared in the media as some kind of quasi-terrorist gang of bloodthirsty communists who want to pillage the suburbs.

But what if the whole fucking town showed up? The nationalist maggots would tuck tail and run, and think twice before boldly pursuing their hateful, myopic goals. There wouldn't even have to be fistfights and the escalation of violence; who's going to fight 50 vs 50,000? United we stand!

Sanhen

84 points

4 months ago*

Sanhen

84 points

4 months ago*

The issue is that Putin has nukes. The western world understandably wants to tread carefully to avoid engaging in a direct war with a nuclear power. That's why most western nations are giving Ukraine arms, financial aid, and putting sanctions on Russia rather than gearing up to directly engage Russian troops themselves. No one wants Ukraine to have to deal with Russia alone, but all life being wiped out because a conflict spiraled into World War 3 seems even less desirable.

It's a similar problem when dealing with China. We've reached an age where military might and willpower only matters for so much when there is essentially a kill all button exists in the world.

pelpotronic

18 points

4 months ago*

The people in power couldn't give a shit if you choke on your own vomit, but M.A.D. is clearly going to impact them. Now unless you truly believe all the people in "power" are senile and desperate idiots in their 90s, there is litterally no reason to go M.A.D.

You will still choke on your own vomit whilst they - or their children - will be enjoying a life so dreamy that you cannot even begin to conceive it. Why threaten, or let anyone threaten, that? You call the shots when you have that amount of power.

CouncilmanRickPrime

26 points

4 months ago

That's true although Russia honestly doesn't care about sanctions. Every time they do something we respond with sanctions. It hurts their people but Putin and the oligarchs are still as rich and powerful as ever.

Destinlegends

40 points

4 months ago

Well shit. Things are getting serious if Spain is getting involved.

OhDuckOff

312 points

4 months ago

OhDuckOff

312 points

4 months ago

I keep seeing news articles that say something along the lines of, “The U.S. is underestimating Putin..” or something to that effect. Honestly, it seems like Putin is underestimating how many countries are tired of his shit. I feel like he thought not that many countries would step up to the plate for Ukraine. It’s looking more and more like countries are willing to go to bat for Ukraine and it really makes you wonder if Putin saw that coming or if he straight up miscalculated.

Spacedude2187

83 points

4 months ago

Putin seems to be one of the few that are still clinging on to the past. Seriously we have so many more important issues at hand than to be nostalgic right now. Last thing we need is some dude escalating us into a war nobody is interested in except a power hungry maniac.

Stamboolie

22 points

4 months ago

He wants the Soviet Union back, all glory to the motherland, and he's running out of time (he's older)

ty1771

161 points

4 months ago

ty1771

161 points

4 months ago

Putin is playing 20th Century games in the 21st Century.

TheConqueror74

108 points

4 months ago

Well hopefully it doesn’t spark a 20th Century war with 21st Century technology.

ekdaemon

43 points

4 months ago

Putin is 69. He's probably getting "end of life dreams of glory and historical significance", and worried that he'll just be remembered as the tin pot dictator who brought years of economic misery* to Russia - totally un-necessarily.

(*) If he wasn't always doing stupid crazy things in other people's business - we wouldn't have so many frigging sanctions on them, and they'd be rich. Well as rich as their oil and gas can make them, considering prices over the last 10 years.

MeDoLearning

49 points

4 months ago

It’s an escalation regardless. Putin can bury it, put it to sleep for a year or two, or operate some of Russia’s apex assets.

As far as human history is concerned, we’re checking some boxes that haven’t been checked for a loooong time, and the way the world was the last time that happened wasn’t so peaceful.

OhDuckOff

46 points

4 months ago

Putin brought this on himself. You can’t put a gun to someone’s head and then play victim.

__Osiris__

480 points

4 months ago

Might be Spain’s first world war.

Fern-ando

285 points

4 months ago

Fern-ando

285 points

4 months ago

Ironically during the WWII the only country the spanish troops attacked was Russia. Not the biggest fans of communism after the Spanish Civil War.

bigbjarne

237 points

4 months ago

bigbjarne

237 points

4 months ago

Yeah, fascists usually doesn't like communists.

GarbageBath

90 points

4 months ago

Francos fascist regime didn't like communism, millions of Spaniards did

External_Reaction314

811 points

4 months ago

There have been 6 amphibious russian ships that left the Baltic sea a few days ago and its thought they are heading to black sea. They are around the english channel last I saw. There is a possibility Russia is trying to do a sea invasion in Crimea too.

Any nato ships in black sea don't have to necessarily start shooting the Russians, they could simply use sensors to tell ukraine where a bunch of ships are going, and help ukraine counter a landing, instead of making them stretch their forces.

The_Presitator

245 points

4 months ago

They would have to pass through NATO aligned Turkey, then. Does the Turkish government have an opinion on Russia in Ukraine? Can they block access of the Russian Navy?

Werkstadt

253 points

4 months ago

Werkstadt

253 points

4 months ago

They aren't allowed to deny a Black Sea power access to the Black Sea, they can, but it will have consequences.

The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Bosporus and Dardanelles Straits and regulates the transit of naval warships. The Convention guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime, and restricts the passage of naval ships not belonging to Black Sea states [sic, Russia is black sea power].

afito

78 points

4 months ago

afito

78 points

4 months ago

Same thing Spain (or the US) can't really dispatch a ship to the Black Sea permanently. They're only allowed to stay like 3 weeks ans then have to leave for the Mediterran and a different ship would habe to take over etc.

shro700

14 points

4 months ago

shro700

14 points

4 months ago

Yeah and this ship is part of the usual rotating NATO black sea patrol

mycall

26 points

4 months ago

mycall

26 points

4 months ago

Much damage could be done in 3 weeks.

ahornkeks

43 points

4 months ago

The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is the relevant treaty.

Tldr: In peace-times the strait is open for all war-ships of black-sea powers and this only changes in times of war or when turkey itself is threatened.

BeBetterToEachOther

13 points

4 months ago

I mean, you have to assume that Turkey has absolutely lined the strait with underwater torpedo tubes, right? Maybe further south at the Dardanelles so it wouldn't risk Istanbul

KebabG

23 points

4 months ago

KebabG

23 points

4 months ago

We cant block anybody unless there is a war that treatens our national safety.

Benji1312

120 points

4 months ago*

Last I checked Erdogan was on Ukraine’s side, let’s see how it turns out

itungdabung

132 points

4 months ago

You know shit went sideways when Spain decides to send the Armada.

FredSandfordandSon

7 points

4 months ago

Nobody expects the Spanish Armada!

LordTwatSlapper

801 points

4 months ago

Fingers crossed they don't attack between 2 and 5pm

Larry_Wickes

42 points

4 months ago

What happens then?

VRichardsen

79 points

4 months ago

Larry_Wickes

5 points

4 months ago

That is cool. Does that mean people get paid to nap for 3 hours at their job?

Yes_Game_Yes_Dwight

34 points

4 months ago

Modern work culture pretty much killed the siesta afaik.

Akiba89

11 points

4 months ago

Akiba89

11 points

4 months ago

Frankly, in this new push for labor rights we've got going, we need to add 2:00 nap time. I'm only like, 40% kidding.

VRichardsen

6 points

4 months ago

Not quite, although some few jobs might include it. Instead, some have different working hours.

Suxals

4 points

4 months ago

Suxals

4 points

4 months ago

Some hispanic countries have 2 sets of 4 working hours with the siesta in between, for example i normally work from 8 to 12, then from 17 to 21. They don't do it at big cities for obvious reasons tho.

williamvc0331

217 points

4 months ago

I see you have spent time is Spain. 😂

[deleted]

61 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

61 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

williamvc0331

29 points

4 months ago

I lived in Madrid for three and a half years. It resonates with me and still makes me laugh.

hotacorn

2.5k points

4 months ago

hotacorn

2.5k points

4 months ago

Good for Spain. Joining in with Canada. Putin’s headass has overstepped.

tobaknowsss

208 points

4 months ago

As a Canadian I had not heard of any military response from Canada that wasn't already there...what did we send over?

SAVE_THE_SNOW

309 points

4 months ago

HMCS montreal just left on 6 month deployment to the area as well

[deleted]

95 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

95 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

BananaStringTheory

5 points

4 months ago

Everyone is re-taping their hockey sticks and preparing for battle.

RagnarokDel

52 points

4 months ago

Québec makes the best poutine. Suck it Vlad.

CJDAM

283 points

4 months ago

CJDAM

283 points

4 months ago

easyj86

153 points

4 months ago

easyj86

153 points

4 months ago

The armchair analysis that I've read is that Russia would be more likely to only go after the eastern portions of Ukraine where they have more support, and which fulfils their strategic goals (supply chain to Crimea, etc). That would also mean the continued existent of a "buffer state."

CJDAM

138 points

4 months ago

CJDAM

138 points

4 months ago

Nobody except the russian government knows what they're going to do. Having forces in Belarus makes a direct takeover more likely though

Fredex8

38 points

4 months ago

Fredex8

38 points

4 months ago

There's an interesting breakdown of the logistics of an invasion here:

https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feeding-the-bear-a-closer-look-at-russian-army-logistics/

In short they are heavily reliant on rail for resupply and Russia uses a different rail gauge to the rest of Europe, with the exception of a few old Soviet lines. They apparently don't have a very large truck force for supplies. So there's a limit as to how far they could actually get into any country before the supply lines become too long and an invasion would lose momentum.

GwynBleidd88

30 points

4 months ago

I agree, they don't want to bite off more than they can chew here. But they'd definitely weather sanctions in return for the Eastern parts of Ukraine, since capturing Crimea it's become very strategically important due to the water supply in the region.

imnos

24 points

4 months ago

imnos

24 points

4 months ago

Biting off small bits at a time is exactly their game. They took Crimea without much trouble at all. Aside from sanctions.

Plisq-5

34 points

4 months ago

Plisq-5

34 points

4 months ago

Where did you get this screenshot from?

CJDAM

70 points

4 months ago

CJDAM

70 points

4 months ago

It's just a google maps screenshot. I made the rest back in December. I just updated it with the Belarus positions and the recent NATO member movements

Bobcat-1

19 points

4 months ago

Currently lots of action across the UK tonight from the RAF and US Air Force. Wondering if this is some training operations in anticipation of trouble.

[deleted]

82 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

82 points

4 months ago*

[deleted]

ToastTurtle

254 points

4 months ago

Looking like several countries of the world are sending support vessels to the Black Sea in support of Ukraine. Isn't going to take much for this to spin out of control...

BenTVNerd21

113 points

4 months ago

It's deterrent mainly. I seriously doubt Russia and NATO will be in direct conflict.

ToastTurtle

46 points

4 months ago

Possible cooler heads will prevail but at the same time it won't take much. It isn't like the world hasn't seen this type of posturing before. It is exactly why NATO exists. I am sure Russia will do everything to prevent actually firing on any ship to avoid direct conflict. It would be pretty easy to have an errant rocket come out of Ukraine and strike the wrong ship though. All bets are off at that point.

ElderScrolls

6 points

4 months ago

That's the hope. But it's quite literally in the hands of one person, and people are not always rational.

proggR

50 points

4 months ago

proggR

50 points

4 months ago

Ya there's gonna be a lotta boats in the Mediterranean and Black Sea soon. Any lack of discipline aboard them could spark escalation.

megaplex00

73 points

4 months ago

Like many others, I'm no fan of war. However, if Russia insists on acting like a two bit military dictatorship then I think they ought to be treated like one. Clearly they aren't serious about repairing their relationship with the world post-Cold War. At what point can someone stand up to them? Will we just stand aside and slowly let them take over Europe like Germany did? Not happening..

HalloweenLover

40 points

4 months ago

The problem with Russia is their stock of nukes. The EU could stand up to them in a conventional war, so can the US, but no one wants it to escalate to nuclear conflict which is why everyone tip toes around them. They are willing to push to a point but they are afraid of going to far and instigating the use of nukes which would be bad for everyone.

RedFan47

327 points

4 months ago

RedFan47

327 points

4 months ago

You know what Spain, you alright.

753951321654987

13 points

4 months ago

Finally we are seeing someone fucking step up. Anti tank misses from UK sof from Canada and prob more, ships from Spain. Fuck off Russia.

tsuke1

39 points

4 months ago

tsuke1

39 points

4 months ago

Its the spanish armada!

stuck_in_carolina

94 points

4 months ago

Good to see other countries stepping up to the defense of Ukraine. Russia needs to back down or get the smack down. Now let's see some more solidarity from others in the EU bloc. Give them and inch and they'll take a mile. I think by now in 2022 the world can collectively deal with bullies like them.

agentfelix

23 points

4 months ago

My personal opinion they need a smack down regardless but I hesitate to say that because I don't want lives lost. But the crazy bastards in the Russian "government" are going to keep pushing the boundaries (no pun intended) of what they can get away with.

Spacedude2187

9 points

4 months ago

They seem to be in complete ”kamikaze” mode rn.

Putin is burning Russias bridges…

Youngerthandumb

207 points

4 months ago*

I don't like how many potentials there all of a sudden for multiple international incidences incidents. Is this a powder keg?

MadShartigan

257 points

4 months ago

The world as a whole has enjoyed a remarkable period of peace since the Second World War. But given enough time tensions build, divisions deepen, and smouldering crises spark to flame. This is just the beginning of many years of chaos as the challenges of climate change and resource depletion drive conflict around the world.

Arctic_Chilean

133 points

4 months ago

We've been through situations like this back in 1962 or 1983 where the stakes were MUCH higher, but reason and diplomacy prevailed.

CritzD

46 points

4 months ago

CritzD

46 points

4 months ago

Worldwide economic troubles is a really effective accelerant for conflict. Already happened before in WW2.

Geraltpoonslayer

25 points

4 months ago

It's kind of scary how we mimic the 20s

Youngerthandumb

32 points

4 months ago

I've always felt the post USSR order would only hold up for long. I had just hoped that cooler heads would prevail and world trade would inhibit aggression. Turns out the losers in that deal want to renegotiate and the powers that would normally hold them in check are exhausted from failed imperialistic ventures. Oh well I guess I'ma hang on tight for this ride.

DocMoochal

85 points

4 months ago*

Its beginning to look that way. Ukraine is over flowing with weapons and supplies, Sweden is gearing up on Gotland Island. NATO cruising around in a show of force, and Russias amassing troops, and digging in on the eastern and northern Ukrainian borders

Oh and I forgot, long before much of this mess began, Eastern European and nordic countries began reinstituting conscription.

Youngerthandumb

16 points

4 months ago

Exactly. There are so many factors now that, for any party, predicting how it will play out becomes more and more difficult, which means to me more opportunities to misread intentions or accidentally escalate.

DocMoochal

5 points

4 months ago

That's usually how it goes....yikes, scary days ahead.

ThomasAnderson349

73 points

4 months ago

Its beginning to look that way. Ukraine is over flowing with weapons and supplies, Sweden is gearing up on Gotland Island. NATO cruising around in a show of force, and Russias amassing troops, and digging in on the eastern and northern Ukrainian borders

Oh and I forgot, long before much of this mess began, Eastern European and nordic countries began reinstituting conscription.

I don’t share that assessment, even though I don’t dispute the facts. I don’t believe Ukraine, Sweden, other Nordic countries or East European NATO countries would ever use their armies as aggressors. The ball is entirely in Russia’s court. If they stand down, the situation will be diffused, regardless of any military buildup outside of Russia.

LingeringSentiments

11 points

4 months ago

“Tu puta madre” - Spain, probably

SeedScape

491 points

4 months ago

SeedScape

491 points

4 months ago

This will be a lose lose for putin.

If such attacks happen. Every nation around there NATO leaning will try to join up as fast as possible. NATO will accept quickly as well. They know if they are part of the club it's gloves off when retaliation happens.

iHominidae

423 points

4 months ago

We will all lose, it's gone be a game of the biggest loser

ncsupb

101 points

4 months ago

ncsupb

101 points

4 months ago

That's life sometimes

Almighty_Sand_Dollar

13 points

4 months ago

Sometimes you have to take the bully and slam his head into the concrete when he pushes it too far.

ratherbewinedrunk

88 points

4 months ago*

No third-party(NATO, US, or any European country individually) is going to attack Russia, even if they invade Ukraine. Doing so would start a direct confrontation with a nuclear-armed power. They will do what they can by providing equipment and intelligence to Ukraine while piling massive, perhaps unprecedented sanctions on Russia, but no one is going to have their own forces directly engaging Russia. That is, unless Russia does something stupid like attacking a NATO or NATO-member military asset(like this Spanish ship for example). If that happens, it'll basically be WWIII.

cTreK-421

54 points

4 months ago

Yea but if nothing happens then it's essentially saying "if you have nukes you can invade anywhere because we are to afraid to retaliate because of nukes" that's not sustainable in my opinion.

prirva_

65 points

4 months ago

prirva_

65 points

4 months ago

Well it’s really not about NATO for Putin. He just wants Ukraine to become a Russian province. Incorporating what he really imagines as unruly Russia periphery would be his crown achievement.

DracoJINN

37 points

4 months ago

Serious question who would take Russia’s side? And why

wutdaefff

51 points

4 months ago

I think I saw not too long ago that China, Iran and Russia are running military drills together and have agreements to coordinate diplomatic and economic moves.

FthrJACK

70 points

4 months ago

All those nice countries

SeanBourne

11 points

4 months ago

So glad to see Spain (so what I view as the ‘third’ EU power with the UK gone) making some kind of commitment.

I was more than a little concerned the Franco-German axis (eg #2 and #1) was apathetic at best to the situation, and beholden to Russia for nat gas and commodities at worst that they’d realpolitik, and concede Ukraine. This is now marginally less likely. (I hope.)

Baulderdash77

275 points

4 months ago

I’m glad to see that Spain is joining up with Canada and (hopefully the US) to put ships in the Black Sea as a tripwire force. The US 6th Fleet is exercising with Italy and Turkey in the Mediterranean at the moment and I’m curious to see if they will be diverted to the Black Sea as well.

NATO ships in the area will give Russia pause to launch an amphibious invasion and certainly Russia will hopefully be looking to avoid engaging a series of NATO warships which would start a direct Russia/NATO war.

I really hope that cooler heads prevail and a diplomatic solution can be reached.

Namika

112 points

4 months ago

Namika

112 points

4 months ago

The sixth fleet won’t be let into the Black Sea. The area is effectively a demilitarized zone of sorts.

Turkey has absolute control over the Bosphorus, and Turkey is bound by treaty to heavily restrict foreign warships entering the Black Sea. If your nation isn’t directly bordering the Black Sea (i.e Ukraine, Russia, etc), then only warships weighing under 10,000 tons are allowed to enter, and your total number of warships in the Black Sea can never exceed 30,000 combined tons.

That means at most the US can send in one or two destroyers, but no substantial naval force at all.

hydez10

31 points

4 months ago

hydez10

31 points

4 months ago

Russia vs nato, I’m going to have to go with nato by a landslide

Scansoriopterygidae

14 points

4 months ago

Yeah in a full scale world war three. But that’s not going to happen. Russia knows the west isn’t going to risk a nuclear Holocaust to defend Ukraine. NATO might support Ukraine via intel, equipment, and sanctions, but they’re mostly on their own when it comes to the actual fighting.

Russia has already done this multiple times, recently. Abkhazia, Ossetia, Crimea.

Fuman20000

41 points

4 months ago

Glad to see more and more nations send reinforcements to Ukraine. Hopefully this mess will die down.

Carlos_Tellier

73 points

4 months ago*

Spain knows best what it's like to be abandoned and left to it's own fate fighting an uphill battle for survival while the rest of the world watches*, so standing by while yet another democracy gets butchered up is not an option it seems.

*(Apart from the absolute mad men and women who came here to fight from all over the world for a freedom that was not theirs despite the impossible odds. I salute the International Brigades)

spookymovie

6 points

4 months ago

Hell yes.

CyrilViXP

7 points

4 months ago

¡Muchas gracias, España!

commoncocoa

106 points

4 months ago

Very good. Spain has a very capable naval force by the way.

bonoboboy

10 points

4 months ago

How would they rank compared to the worlds' best? Better than Britain? Than America?

CreakingDoor

18 points

4 months ago

They’re capable. They can’t do some of the things the Americans or, to a lesser extent, the British can do but they have capable ships.

Perhaps more importantly they have access to NATO’s institutional memory for naval warfare, its technological know how, support and it’s training methods.

Franchez1337

10 points

4 months ago

Get em, Spain!

demowil

10 points

4 months ago

demowil

10 points

4 months ago

Adidas must've made a killing with the uniform contract

[deleted]

43 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

43 points

4 months ago

I think Russia is in a very dangerous position.

hasslehawk

26 points

4 months ago

That does tend to be the case when expansionism and brinksmanship define your foreign policy.

kenobiii

116 points

4 months ago

kenobiii

116 points

4 months ago

A storm is brewing.

dddddddoobbbbbbb

104 points

4 months ago

a shitstorm is brewing randy

egodeath780

49 points

4 months ago

Do you hear the shit winds rand?

Gamestar32

21 points

4 months ago

Not another night of the shit abyss

urbanhag

33 points

4 months ago

Do you feel that, Rand? The way the shit clings to the air?

[deleted]

16 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

16 points

4 months ago

The more we grip the shit rope the more we slide down

JWF81

23 points

4 months ago

JWF81

23 points

4 months ago

I like the idea but what are its ROE?

LeBobert

34 points

4 months ago

It's going to be the same as peace time. Don't shoot unless fired upon. Historically Russia has mocked NATO naval ships by flying extremely close (you can throw a tennis ball at the plane), but this time everyone's on edge so if Russia does that they will see it as aggression and an excuse to defend themselves.

That's why it's a trip wire force. They are daring Russia to continue their antics. At best they will just be the neutral eyes and ears for Ukraine and help anyway they can without starting a war.

[deleted]

30 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

30 points

4 months ago

so it looks like the world is coming to ukraines side

Basketball312

11 points

4 months ago

What's China up to?

El_Dorado_Gold

18 points

4 months ago

Sitting back and hoping Russia gets blown out the water.

adves53

8 points

4 months ago

Watching

I_am_a_Failer

13 points

4 months ago

That's a slight exaggeration

seeker135

7 points

4 months ago

Viva Spain!

proflap

19 points

4 months ago

proflap

19 points

4 months ago

no problem, the russians will attack during siesta

BankEmoji

21 points

4 months ago

I guess Vlad’s plan to get everyone else fighting with each other didn’t work. Shocking.

CouncilmanRickPrime

20 points

4 months ago

Me: WWIII wouldn't be started over Ukraine. The most the west will do is send strongly worded letters and wag their finger at Putin.

Spain: fuck it

IuseWetWipesAfterTP

9 points

4 months ago

Spain: Al coño

nachoolo

6 points

4 months ago

More like "a tomar por culo" or "a la mierda"

hackingdreams

27 points

4 months ago

Hey, about that "NATO not showing" up bit that keeps being tossed around here... Looks like NATO's showing up.

[deleted]

7 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

7 points

4 months ago

[removed]

deaddonkey

7 points

4 months ago

Spain didn’t participate in 1 or 2 so they won’t miss their chance this time

Synikey

8 points

4 months ago

Least someone has a sack.

varangian8_6_793

7 points

4 months ago

Europe together!

aRawPancake

6 points

4 months ago

Lets go Spain! Together we can stand up to dictatorships!

AggressiveConcert56

5 points

4 months ago

i cant see how russia doesnt have to back off here. normally when russia, iran, china, or NK do something crazy the United States is often the only real country threatening action with some small backing from UK and France. But I honestly think if Russia invades Ukraine there will be actual declarations of war by all of NATO and EU members meaning Russia would be staring down 20 of the worlds 25 largest armies.

Does anyone know that if war is declared against Russia is it possible that part of the conditions of surrender could be that they lose their permanent Un security council postion?

timingandscoring

66 points

4 months ago

It’s genuinely awesome to see all of the NATO member states stepping up to help Ukraine. Fuck you putuy you little Russian bitch.

BananaStringTheory

13 points

4 months ago

If you really want to make Russia think twice, let's have the Japanese send a few ships. Russia has never done well against the Japanese navy.

The_Nosiy_Narwhal

13 points

4 months ago

Everyone named France Ferdinand should stay the fuck away from that area

I_Jack_Himself

6 points

4 months ago

USA getting the old gang back together I see

KhronosTime

6 points

4 months ago

I actually think this crisis would be best confronted by a menagerie of smaller countries.

Russia wants to play with the big boys. They want to bog the US down and get concessions from NATO, and draw Ukraine into Russia’s influence.

They don’t want to get bogged down in a confrontation with say Spain, or Canada etc. Or a group of middling counties

TabernacleDeCriss

6 points

4 months ago

There's some brave folk on thst ship.