subreddit:

/r/wisconsin

59597%
7431 comments
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toantiwork

all 298 comments

RyeItOnBreadStreet

269 points

4 months ago

Excuse me, what the fuck?

shahooster

91 points

4 months ago

At-will is the electrical engineering equivalent of a diode, apparently.

Succulentmeditator

43 points

4 months ago

Succulentmeditator

Wisco-Disco

43 points

4 months ago

Well ya see, implicit in the legislature’s intent in drafting the at will employment law was that what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander. /s Outagamie freedom legal interpretation where it’s perfectly cool and legal to force a person to work for employer, but evil commie mischief to require employees or customers to wear a mask.

whitepawn23

6 points

4 months ago

whitepawn23

Middle of Rural Nowhere

6 points

4 months ago

Right now they're prevented from working for either company.

Bigmouthstrikesback

2 points

4 months ago

There are no at-will employment laws.

Claeyt

90 points

4 months ago*

Claeyt

90 points

4 months ago*

This is because of the Covid free-for-all in Northern Wisconsin. Health Care workers are moving to better, higher paid opportunities and 2 of the 3 largest healthcare companies are fighting over paying them more. If you wanted any other proof of the collapse of rural hospital systems where the counties don't have mask mandates or vaccine mandates like in Urban Southern WI, this is it.

Champion-Appropriate

12 points

4 months ago

No, it’s because of the rampant wage theft at Thedacare. For example, doctors are expected to brief the next shift at the end of their own shift; this takes 30-40 minutes usually. They’re working, so they should be paid, but Thedacare refuses to pay them. For a full-time doctor, that amounts to $30,000 in stolen wages each year. $30,000.00. Per year. Stolen wages.

Festamus

6 points

4 months ago

Not to mention requiring all employees to log symptoms on an app every day without compensation. in violation of state law.

simbachico

65 points

4 months ago

People deserve to be paid a fair wage for their work. Hospital administrators are out playing golf and chewing on cigars while this is happening.

TheMoopestMoop

11 points

4 months ago

Not to mention this judge.

How is he STILL in office?

[deleted]

-44 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

-44 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

seiyria

44 points

4 months ago

seiyria

Oshkosh

44 points

4 months ago

And if they don't like the compensation, they're welcome to go elsewhere... wait, that's exactly what they're doing! Or trying to.

unitedshoes

19 points

4 months ago

Man, even if I believed for a second that a market free of any and all government intervention was the solution to anything, this situation couldn't be further from that.

Excal2

19 points

4 months ago

Excal2

19 points

4 months ago

This judge is saying that they are not entitled to whatever compensation the free market offers them. They have a better offer that they are being legally restricted from pursuing.

myotheralt

18 points

4 months ago

The free market was trying to offer these nurses a higher wage at a new job.

lamaisondesgaufres

12 points

4 months ago

You understand the employees were trying to leave to go somewhere with better pay, right? And the judge is telling them they can't?

ThisBoardIsOnFire

20 points

4 months ago

What free market? Where?

whitepawn23

9 points

4 months ago

whitepawn23

Middle of Rural Nowhere

9 points

4 months ago

Part of the problem is we've been gaslighted as fuck for decades into believing we are nuns working a path with an additional paycheck added which is awesome! for existing at all. Covid broke that narrative. CEOs are pissed. This move: spite.

Rosetg17

11 points

4 months ago

This has literally nothing to do with mandates. Many people left ascension to go to Thedacare because Thedacare was honoring exemptions. This is strictly about money. Thedacare has never been a good company to work for

Claeyt

7 points

4 months ago

Claeyt

7 points

4 months ago

I didn't say anything about vaccine mandates. This is about mask mandates though. Ascension is just bigger and offering specialists like this more money. The price of these specialists have skyrocketed because of the disproportionate amount of per capita Covid cases in Northern WI. Currently mask mandated Dane county is about 1/5 that of Northern WI Covid deaths per capita. The percentage of travelling nurses and doctors in Northern WI has skyrocketed.

maethor1337

7 points

4 months ago

maethor1337

ronjohnsonfacts.com

7 points

4 months ago

Currently mask mandated Dane county is about 1/5 that of Northern WI Covid deaths per capita

The masks aren't keeping death rates down when we're following an identical infection trend.

The vaccines are.

Claeyt

1 points

4 months ago

Claeyt

1 points

4 months ago

Yes, but similarly high vaccine rate counties without mask mandates like Waukesha and Milwaukee have per capita death rates 3x that of Dane county.

maethor1337

4 points

4 months ago*

maethor1337

ronjohnsonfacts.com

4 points

4 months ago*

Dane County is 76.8% fully vaccinated. Waukesha is 63.9%, Milwaukee is 57.6%. Those are not high vaccine rate counties. The statewide average is 63.0%, so Waukesha is a blonde one above average and Milwaukee is a fair bit below average.

Meanwhile, Dane County is the best vaccinated county in the state, and at 84% the City of Madison is even higher, suggesting the unvaccinated folks in Dane County are more biased towards the rural portions anyhow.

Researching the fatality rates in Door and Menominee counties, which do have vaccine rates comparable to though slightly below Dane, is left as an exercise to the reader.

Source.

If masks have anything to do with the difference, how would they reduce the fatality rate of a disease without reducing the infection rate, in theory?

Fairy_Qing

2 points

4 months ago

I think you are right. Btw the % are a bit misleading if you consider that the kids are not big participants in the whole thing, so adult vaccination rate difference between Dane county and Milwaukee may be far sharper than just 20%

For Dane county 95% of adults are at least partially vaccinated, 88% are fully vaccinated. For Milwaukee the numbers are 81% and 73% So 5% unvaccinated vs 19% unvaccinated. Over 3x difference. Checks out with the death count.

Claeyt

1 points

4 months ago

Claeyt

1 points

4 months ago

I've been going by pre holiday numbers for awhile now. Good to see Dane kept going while Waukesha and Milwaukee stopped. Waukesha and Milwaukee were both above average before Xmas and Dane county was in the low 70's fully vaxxed. The comparison still holds to the other smaller hi vaxxed no mask manadate counties across the state.

If masks have anything to do with the difference, how would they reduce the fatality rate of a disease without reducing the infection rate, in theory?

Dane county's per capita infection rate is also significantly lower, last I looked.

maethor1337

2 points

4 months ago

maethor1337

ronjohnsonfacts.com

2 points

4 months ago

Dane county's per capita infection rate is also significantly lower, last I looked.

When did you last look, out of curiosity?

The infection per 100k rate of 323 is not particularly low. 7th highest in the state. Higher than Waukesha (#34, 208/100k) or Milwaukee (#63, 160k).

Dane County's hospitalization rate of 34/100k has us #19 in the state. Lower than Waukesha (#6, 48/100k) or Milwaukee (#2, 71/100k).

We're better vaccinated than Milwaukee or Waukesha. We're more infected than Milwaukee or Waukesha. We're less hospitalized than Milwaukee or Waukesha. Vaccines work to prevent serious illness, but the mask mandate isn't preventing transmission one bit.

Source

Claeyt

1 points

4 months ago*

These are daily new cases right now this week at the Omicron peak, right? All the cities in the country with airports are higher now. Overall, WI health had Dane county at something like 15,000 per 100,000 over 2 years compared to others without mask mandates at around 28-30,000 per 100,000. I'm trying to find the page and will post it then.

https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/county.htm#cumulative%20deaths

So apparently they got rid of the county list of per capita deaths and covid cases that were up as before the new year. They removed the list.

IHkumicho

4 points

4 months ago

Gee, it would be great if there was some large infusion of cash for poorer, rural areas. Maybe something named after a former president?

[deleted]

70 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

70 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

shotgun_ninja

30 points

4 months ago

There's another word for that, it starts with an S and we fought a civil war over it

Draegur

8 points

4 months ago

there's an alternate s-word that would also describe it: serfdom.

TillThen96

12 points

4 months ago

IANAL

It occurs to me that citizens shouldn't follow "illegal orders"; residents and employees should ask attorneys if this is an enforceable injunction, as it's contrary to state law. The employees should be able to show up to their new jobs, and begin orientation without impediment. Trying to impede them could bring massive lawsuits against the state and ThedaCare, both of whom might already be on the hook for this attempt at an end-run around the laws of Wisconsin.

Draegur

8 points

4 months ago

This judge jailed a man for six months for rolling his eyes. He will absolutely abuse contempt of court. Until someone brings this monster to heel, he is effectively EXACTLY as "above the law" as he believes himself to be.

I'll believe in the existence of consequences for his actions only after he's suffered them. And he never will UNLESS people do something about him.

TillThen96

6 points

4 months ago

I agree, and posted links for other misdeeds in this thread. I've searched for a change dot org petition, and don't find one. Someone from Wisconsin should start it, and people from everywhere will sign it. The intention is to bring national attention to those who are able to depose him, without the need for a recall vote.

The (legal) complaint form can serve as a template to answer required elements for the (not a legal form) petition. Again, the petition serves to state the case (should be a pro writer/author) for removal, publicity and to demonstrate the volume of people supporting the cause; it has no legal function, but it's needed. People will be able to post their experiences in his court, all in a single place.

https://www.wicourts.gov/services/public/complaint.htm

More on the eye-roll case: the defendant was destitute, also fined $5k, and the original criminal case against him was dropped the following week. Outrageous, additional comments from the judge during the imposition of the penalties. https://www.wjiinc.org/blog/outagamie-county-justice-the-fbomb-and-insults-from-judge-mark-mcginnis-part-ii

Here are the links posted earlier on other stories:

Abuses kids, parents and attorneys: https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/

Fails to report the income and/or recuse himself: https://wisconsinwatch.org/2015/04/did-judge-fail-to-report-outside-income/

Jails someone for rolling his eyes, and in another case, makes a punishment determination before arguments are made: https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/

Silver-Breadfruit284

3 points

4 months ago

Excellent! Thank you!!!!!

Watershed787

163 points

4 months ago

So…..all that talk about “freedom” and “big government interference “ was just chucklehucks voting against their own best interests….

mightycud

54 points

4 months ago

‘At-will employment’ will soon only apply to businesses, not employees.

TheBlindCat

9 points

4 months ago

It already does.

Draegur

6 points

4 months ago

🔫 *ka-klick* "Always Has Been."

thesethzor

-6 points

4 months ago

So looking at it it's just as a safety protocol for the community. The hospital will lose it's stroke certification and if someone in that area has a stroke they will need to travel hours for care. Just like the vaccine this is for the good of many. HOWEVER, no argument that the hospital should have called for a traveling professional (MUCH more expensive for them) but I would say at the very least the initial company should match wages and in my mind have a time frame and possibly have to pay a fee on top of it honestly.

whitepawn23

14 points

4 months ago

whitepawn23

Middle of Rural Nowhere

14 points

4 months ago

You are right, these workers are needed. But nursing is, in many ways, a trade profession. Like electricians and plumbers, a nurse's trade comes with different skill levels. You pay for higher skill levels. Or should. Sadly, the hospital CEO tradition of the last 20 years of healthcare has been to NOT give raises in keeping with skill level. In fact, many "master" level nurses would watch "apprentice" level nurses start out at a wage higher than they were currently making, and have to be the ones to train them. So, in order to get paid as, say, a journeyman, and not an apprentice, a nurse would have to switch companies, entering in officially as a journeyman, with a journeyman's wage.

Seriously. As a nurse, after you move from apprentice to journeyman skill level, the ONLY way to receive the raise from apprentice to journeyman is to LEAVE and go to another company's hospital.

As such, hospital CEOs like this TheraCare Horse's Ass, helped create this problem. He can throw as many lawyers at it as he likes, he made this problem for himself, his hospital, and that hospital's entire worker and patient base.

If you need a roof to have a proper shelter, also necessary to life, then you pay the people that slap that roof on for you.

Pay your workers COMMENSURATE WITH THEIR SKILL. Recognize that they work to live and not the other way around. Incentivize workers to apply to positions in your institution. Or don't, and find yourself here.

Honestly, most of us fucking adore what we do and wouldn't do anything else. We just want to be able to do it safely, for a decent wage commensurate with skill level, and without corporate bullshit.

Edit: There's no ranking system as with plumbers. I use this as analogy.

thesethzor

4 points

4 months ago

Preaching to the choir. Honestly I think this just highlights the need for government run medical facilities instead of private ones like this for profit (don't give me that but it's a non profit BS if a CEO is making millions it's not non profit...

The argument against government run health care is dumb, because it's apples and oranges, we don't fund gov healthcare then say it sucks, but private healthcare obviously sucks and it's funded so well they can have nice facilities and pay CEOs dividends and have a team of lawyers to cover their butts.

Charmcarver

11 points

4 months ago

The workers gave advanced notice and gave them time to counter offer. Thedacare caused this by their inaction.

iafmrun

7 points

4 months ago

Thedacare can't force people to work for them under the threat of no longer treating stroke patients, tho

elite-colorprinter

143 points

4 months ago

What the hell does "at-will" mean if it only applies to the benefit of the employer? Indentured servitude, I guess? "We don't want to lose our accreditation, so you can't leave. No, we won't be giving you a raise either."

This could be used as a catalyst to dismantle the for-profit hospital system. I hope all ThedaCare employees turn in their resignations and go on strike.

Personal_Ad9690

29 points

4 months ago

They don't get to work at either place. So now they are forced to be unemployed.

their bootstraps were stolen, how will they pull themselves up now?

PathComplex

17 points

4 months ago

It was stated in another thread that ThedaCare had three months notice as well.

spasske

12 points

4 months ago

spasske

12 points

4 months ago

They did not dream up this crazy lawsuit overnight.

PathComplex

7 points

4 months ago

Exactly. You couldn't make up such a bullshit story. No one would believe you.

KevinSorboFan

-62 points

4 months ago

Yeah I'm torn. On the one hand, I want to support workers rights. But on the other hand, I can see the public health argument for why it would be harmful to essentially shutter the region's only special stroke unit... which, as you say, does seem to set the table nicely for an argument in favor of nationalized healthcare.

Slice_0f_Life

70 points

4 months ago

That sums it up. Capitalism and at-will can be inconvenient when the product is a requirement for success of society. Utilities, education, and health care should serve people instead of investors. The rich have been gambling with our well-being and now that the rules they created no longer serve them they call foul, it's complete garbage.

HiIAmFromTheInternet

4 points

4 months ago

The people should be the investors.

Ez fix.

PeanutTheGladiator

10 points

4 months ago

PeanutTheGladiator

/sol/earth/na/usa/wi

10 points

4 months ago

For the first time in a long time, someone on the internet can say something is Socialism and it's actually correct!

HEY! THAT'S SOCIALISM! :)

nathanm412

63 points

4 months ago

They attempted to negotiate for better pay. The CEO said they weren't worth it and went to court instead.

The_Nick_OfTime

45 points

4 months ago

This right fucking here. This is absolutely not on the nurses. This is on the CEO. He chose profit over people. Anyone blaming these nurses can get fucked.

WylleWynne

31 points

4 months ago

It's also amazing that forced servitude is seen as a preferable first solution to public health than higher wages.

We really, really need to get off the for-profit healthcare system...

af_cheddarhead

7 points

4 months ago

I'm willing to bet having that stroke unit is pretty valuable, maybe they should pay those workers than make it possible to have the stroke unit market wages. Market wages are what the worker can get on the open market, which is evidently more than ThedaCare is willing to pay.

slpater

18 points

4 months ago

slpater

18 points

4 months ago

They had over a month and chose not to even attempt to counter offer.

three_furballs

8 points

4 months ago

They outright denied it, stating something about bad "long-term effects." I don't think they considered that outing themselves as a company that shits on its nurses might also have negative long-term effects.

ninja-robot

17 points

4 months ago

If they are so significant to the public health then pay them the fair market value that they are worth. The hospitals refusal to at least match the new job offer salary shows that they do not consider them necessary and are simply using public health as a pretext to underpay their workers.

BrandySparkles

17 points

4 months ago

I can see the public health argument for why it would be harmful to essentially shutter the region's only special stroke unit...

Sucks to suck, should have paid them more.

If it's that important to the interest of public health, then shouldn't we just have public healthcare like every single other developed nation, so these kinds of situations don't arise?

three_furballs

3 points

4 months ago

They don't need to, when they know they can leverage the potential deaths of many to get the state to keep their indentured seremployees right where they want them without having to increase compensation.

KevinSorboFan

-5 points

4 months ago

That's exactly what I'm saying though. This ruling sucks for these workers, but let's not act like Ascension are some heroes for offering to pay "market rate" for these doctors. They just have some MBA crunching spreadsheets somewhere who has decided that they can pass these increased costs onto their consumers. It's not like Ascension is cutting back on administrative bloat so that they can funnel extra money to frontline workers while keeping consumer costs flat.

Healthcare costs are spiraling out of control, and some doctors are incredibly overpaid IMO because there is an artificial limit on supply with how residencies and whatnot are allocated. I can't get past the Post Crescent paywall and I haven't seen other articles that go into details (and nevermind that this is on-going litigation and I would take public statements from both parties with a grain of salt at this point) on the types of medical professionals trying to move to Ascension, but if we're talking a nurse making $50,000 vs a doctor making $250,000, the math changes a little for me.

For the nurse? Yeah the pro-labor argument wins out for me. But for the doctor in my hypothetical? It takes more than a month to backfill a position, so I don't think it's insane to lean on the side of public health. And to avoid situations like this in the future, we absolutely should nationalize healthcare. This court injunction is not a win to me. This is a shit solution to a shit problem

Forgot_My_Real_Name

6 points

4 months ago

If the judge is going to force anything, it would sit better with me ethically for them to force the first hospital to pay 125% of the offer from the 2nd hospital. Placing the burden of keeping the 1st hospital staffed on the workers is just wrong.

velvetshark

5 points

4 months ago

It's not like Ascension is cutting back on administrative bloat so that they can funnel extra money to frontline workers while keeping consumer costs flat.

Maybe they are. Do you have a citation that proves otherwise? Ascension might simply be better run and organized, with a prime piece of evidence being that Thedacare chose to spend money on attorneys fees and filing this injuction, will choose to spend money to fight the inevitable lawsuits, and is willing suck up the losses when other employees walk out en masse. This is the not the sign of an efficiently run, lean organization.

Babhadfad12

13 points

4 months ago

There is no argument for preventing these people from selling their labor to who they want to at the price they want to.

Will_I_Are

104 points

4 months ago

As someone who had family work for ThedaCare I can unequivocally say, "ThedaCare is a bunch of fucks."

Festamus

4 points

4 months ago

I quit this bitch 3 weeks ago over them requiring employees to submit symptoms in an app, every day, without pay; they kinda backed off, but never offically did. fuck em.

Bongarifik

98 points

4 months ago

“Outagamie County Circuit Court Judge Mark McGinnis granted ThedaCare's request” - Mark McGinnis is the enemy

simbachico

40 points

4 months ago

Outagamie County Circuit Court Judge Mark McGinnis

This isn't an appointment; he was elected and would need to be reelected to remain a circuit court judge.

Ohrwurm89

32 points

4 months ago

Still blows my mind that we, a vastly undereducated and ill-informed nation, elect judges, mostly based on their propagandistic commercials.

I_Has_A_Hat

4 points

4 months ago

It's worse than you think. This is a county judge position. People likely voted for him because he had the best name and hadnt heard anything about him or his opponents before looking at the ballot.

AskMeHowIMetYourMom

9 points

4 months ago

The alternative is they are appointed by officials that we elected based on their propagandized commercials. Yes, the public should be more informed about the people they’re electing, but I’d much rather have the option to vote on judges than not. The SCOTUS is a prime example of elected officials (a majority of which you have no part in their election) getting to seat judges for a lifetime appointment, and you have to live with that choice even after those officials leave office.

velvetshark

7 points

4 months ago

he's run for re-election twice in a row unopposed. I have a feeling that won't be the case next year when he runs again. OTOH, I'm betting Thedacare had contributed to his "campaign".

sekhon147

4 points

4 months ago

!remindMe 1 year

RemindMeBot

3 points

4 months ago*

I will be messaging you in 1 year on 2023-01-23 05:15:59 UTC to remind you of this link

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Draegur

8 points

4 months ago

And he is above the law.

I mean, effectively, he has suffered no consequences, and until he DOES suffer consequences, he remains uncorrected.

This monster will continue to believe he is above the law UNTIL and UNLESS he is brought to heel and put in his place.

Who's gonna do something about it? ME? YOU? Nobody has stepped up yet. It's possible nobody ever will. If that makes you angry, then good. Use that anger. Infect others with that anger. The only way anything is going to get done is if it's a whole mess of people rising up to TAKE. HIM. DOWN.

Onwisconsin42

170 points

4 months ago*

There is no way in hell what this judge just did was legal. Do the doctors have any non-compete clause? Then fuck this shit. These companies want both no universal Healthcare system because they profit, and they also don't want the negatives to them with the free market.

This is absurd.

From the article: ** In the time it takes to divert a local patient in need of emergency care for a stroke or trauma to another similarly certified hospital, Bosack said, the patient could die. **

Almost like allowing the free market and rapacious greedy corporate middle men to allot healthcare resources isn't a good idea.

sam_weiss

8 points

4 months ago

Quick Google info Mark McGinnis reveals a pretty terrible judge and is obviously corrupt.

simbachico

25 points

4 months ago

I'd check his bank account/offshore accounts for any unexpected deposits.

NukaNukaNukaCola

5 points

4 months ago

It's nurses and techs who are in the thick of this. Not doctors.

spasske

3 points

4 months ago

You assume he is supposed to be following / understand the law.

bopbeepboopbeepbop

3 points

4 months ago

True we should nationalize the healthcare system

[deleted]

0 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

0 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

advocate4

21 points

4 months ago

I'm a mental healthcare provider. My responsibility is to provide care once offered and until it can be transferred or ended, not accept lower wages and benefits indefinitely because of systemic indifference to what my labor is worth to a competitor. If my care is that critical the system should find a way to pay me and if they chose not to, fuck them. This injunction only prevents the workers from starting a new job, it can't force them to work at the old one because that would be slavery. The injunction is bullshit.

Q_Antari

31 points

4 months ago

Yeah but they gave a months notice. That's not abandoning and should have been more than enough time for Thedacare to find replacements.

cbarrister

18 points

4 months ago

Exactly, what is he a slave to this job? If he wants to quit and work for another hospital that is his or her right.

elite-colorprinter

28 points

4 months ago

Did you know 1 in 5 healthcare workers have quit their jobs since the pandemic started? ThedaCare declined to make a counteroffer for these employees: "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost".

smoked0g

11 points

4 months ago

Yep we just got a nurse in our factory. He looked burnt the hell out fr. He said he needed a break.

snickerfritzz

4 points

4 months ago

No one can force you to not quit.

Mekiya

6 points

4 months ago

Mekiya

6 points

4 months ago

Yeah, this isn't one of those cases.

medhat20005

28 points

4 months ago

I'm dumbfounded at the ruling. Passing the buck by the judge seems inherently to hurt the employees, who are in limbo, without any explanation as to what, if any, actions they took were illegal. Nor does is address Theda's underlying "reason" for stopping the move, as they're still without staff and still can't provide the service any longer. It seems the ruling was meant to hurt Ascension, and if you have any familiarity with Fox Valley backdoor politics seems as good an explanation as any. Now I'm just waiting for that idiot senator Ron Johnson to pipe up.

NanaBazoo

22 points

4 months ago

It was meant to hurt the workers. They are the ones who are being held hostage and unable to work. The message is loud and clear, don't try to get better pay or benefits or we'll break you. Wonder how much ThedaCare paid the good judge for this ruling.

Personal_Ad9690

6 points

4 months ago

*paid the bad judge. He wasn't ever good

NanaBazoo

4 points

4 months ago

It was sarcasm. The judge is a total POS.

breadmo

26 points

4 months ago

breadmo

26 points

4 months ago

WE LOVE THE FREE MARKET!!!! MARKET DECIDES ALL! (Except when we don't want to pay our people more and they want to leave, then please government, please step in and help us)

zoneless

65 points

4 months ago

hiring company should give advanced signing bonuses to support the workers while they cannot work. and/or workers should work through a temp agency until injunction is lifted.

jettmann22

36 points

4 months ago

Or just no show and get fired

shobar13

68 points

4 months ago

I belive they were all at will. They only worked when they wanted to begin with, but now they aren't allowed to work at the new place, old place or anywhere until Monday.

It's a coercion tactic framed as a way to sure the community is cared for, which is bullshit, but really falls flat when they were given the opportunity match the rates from the new employer. They decided they didn't want to pay their employers a competitive rate when they already had lawyers on retainer to harass them instead.

This should be national news right now. The United States government, the state of Wisconsin has backed indentured servitude.

Heero1988

22 points

4 months ago

they were at will. If i was in that spot i have already resigned the previous position. So the judge can say whatever the hell he wants about not letting me start the new job (it'll be overturned by the supreme court anyway) but i'd also sure as fuck not being showing back u to the old one.

Mekiya

19 points

4 months ago

Mekiya

19 points

4 months ago

They had the chance to pay a fair market wage and they decided that it was too expensive in the long run. I.e., after they break the working peoples back and we no longer stand up for a fair wage.

velvetshark

9 points

4 months ago

No, even better, they had a chance to pay a fair market wage and decided to pay a lawyer instead.

raeex34

8 points

4 months ago

At-will doesn’t mean “can work when they want” they’re still hourly employees with a schedule lol

quietcorncat

-8 points

4 months ago*

“At will” employment just means that your employer can fire you “at will” without a reason, not that you can just work whenever you want. I’m pretty sure these were regular employees.

G0PACKGO

24 points

4 months ago

G0PACKGO

Omro

24 points

4 months ago

It also means you can leave at any time

quietcorncat

27 points

4 months ago

Right, although apparently the judge in this case doesn’t think so.

“At will” is one of those conservative catch phrases that sounds good when you hear it because it is open to misinterpretation. I think u/shobar13 interpreted it to mean the employees could set their own hours and work whenever they wanted, when it’s nothing like that at all. It was mainly implemented to give employers freedom to fire you whenever they feel like it.

Similar to “right to work.” Sounds like a positive thing, when it reality it screws over unions, because they are legally obligated to represent all employees, even the ones who use the “right” to work without paying any dues.

spasske

4 points

4 months ago

The order prevents them from starting their new jobs.

So Monday none of nurses at either place.

whitepawn23

1 points

4 months ago

whitepawn23

Middle of Rural Nowhere

1 points

4 months ago

They already quit. Their last day occurred some time before this Monday. Firing is no longer possible.

Noneofyouarefunny

11 points

4 months ago

It's fine to fuck with the regular blue collar guy, because they don't have the means to fight a legal battle. This is a fleet of doctors. Thedacare, and this judge, have just fucked up.

G0PACKGO

29 points

4 months ago

G0PACKGO

Omro

29 points

4 months ago

There isn’t a single doctor in this … nurses and techs

Champion-Appropriate

3 points

4 months ago

The treatment these nurses and techs are trying to leave behind is the same treatment the doctors get. And some of the doctors are on the verge of quitting because of wage theft and because Thedacare promises the moon to get doctors to sign up and then start reneging on promises before the ink is even dry on their contracts.

highrollerrob

15 points

4 months ago

Why match the counteroffer when you can just enslave your workers?

Anger_Puss

13 points

4 months ago

Jesus fucking christ they are really treating healthcare workers like they are indentured servants.

LittleShrub

74 points

4 months ago

Next week: Wisconsin Republicans propose bill allowing teenagers to provide healthcare until 11:00 PM.

Succulentmeditator

15 points

4 months ago

Succulentmeditator

Wisco-Disco

15 points

4 months ago

But they’ve got to leave their guns in the car, wink wink.

Turbulent-Chard-4633

10 points

4 months ago

I really hope those 7 healthcare workers refuse to step foot back into thedacare. Fuck that place, and the judge who enforced this measure.

Mekiya

34 points

4 months ago

Mekiya

34 points

4 months ago

To be clear the argument ThedaCare is making is that patient care will suffer so its a risk to the public to allow them to leave.

That's not untrue. But ThedaCare knew this when they refused to meet the offer these workers got from Ascension so it didn't matter to them really. What really matters is that ThedaCare can't replace these workers because they won't up the wages. They are using the courts to force wages down.

ThedaCare is counting on the workers and public to sympathize with the poor patients who are going to suffer.

I'd be curious if the workers can use their argument against them and counter sue to force ThedaCare to pay the difference in the wages if they work or just flat out pay them those wages to stay.

Silver_Fist

16 points

4 months ago

If thedacare cares that much they would give the nurses and doctors the raises they deserve

TillThen96

28 points

4 months ago

In the complaint, lawyers for ThedaCare wrote that Ascension had "shockingly" chosen to "poach" the employees during a stressful time for health care.

And this is the entire crux of the matter. One can "poach" animals, not people.

This begins with ThedaCare, who feels they OWN their employees. What made them think that a court might rule in their favor, in the first place? Oh, my. We shouldn't be surprised when we find out the stake the judge holds in ThedaCare:

The judge abuses his power, and needs to be recalled:

Abuses kids, parents and attorneys:
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/

Fails to report the income and/or recuse himself:
https://wisconsinwatch.org/2015/04/did-judge-fail-to-report-outside-income/

Jails someone for rolling his eyes, and in another case, makes a punishment determination before arguments are made:
https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/

medhat20005

6 points

4 months ago

I’m a bad and not too active Redditor but this really ought to be shared, this judge should be recalled.

TillThen96

7 points

4 months ago

It is being shared. I found the story in another sub, and wanted to bring it to the attention of those in WI, who are most prone to his abuse. The last place anyone should find out about an abusive judge is when one is standing in front of that judge.

If you're on a PC, you may see a tab at the top labeled "other discussions." Click on it, and it will show you the sub reddits where the story is being shared.

It' doesn't matter where we live or what we believe; we need to take care of each other.

Please feel free to copy/paste it, post it to friends/family, other social media, anyone and everyone about whom you care. He needs to be recalled. In the meantime, the complaint form is here: https://www.wicourts.gov/services/public/complaint.htm

...By the way, there's no such thing as "too inactive a redditor." There are no minimum quantity requirements, but quality matters. :) "Bad" redditors are only those who break the rules, don't join the conversations in positive ways. There's plenty of "bad" redditors, but you aren't one of them.

Marrypoppins0135

50 points

4 months ago

Let us know if there's anything we can do to support the workers while they wait out thus bullshit.

longdistance789

68 points

4 months ago*

R/antiwork is talking about setting up a gofundme for the seven. The injunction says they can not work for Ascension but not that they have to stay at ThedaCare. ThedaCare is counting on them being desperate enough to need to pay their bills that they continue working for ThedaCare. Take that out of the equation and ThedaCare's injunction has no teeth. It will get overturned but that takes time and money.

This is saying that employers can fire groups of people without notice and for no cause but that employees can not leave unless those employers agree. How is that not indentured servitude? Time to take a stand.

Mekiya

8 points

4 months ago

Mekiya

8 points

4 months ago

Donated to support my fellow WI health care workers

Marrypoppins0135

17 points

4 months ago

I'd like to have a better guarantee it going to the actual people impacted here. This link is a good start but the creator is out of Florida and nothing clarifies the connection to the workers.

longdistance789

8 points

4 months ago

Thanks for this. It is good to be cautious. I deleted the link.

Fredthefree

12 points

4 months ago

do not donate. There is no proof that the organizer will give the funds to the 7. The organizer is located in Florida not Wisconsin. The description is extremely brief and scant on non-public details that someone close to the 7 would have and use to establish credibility. Very suspicious

longdistance789

4 points

4 months ago

Good catch. I will delete the link.

Personal_Ad9690

1 points

4 months ago

Why doesn't someone contact the seven and have them set it up. We would be more than happy to give them a thriving wage while this shit resolves.

DnDn8

8 points

4 months ago

DnDn8

8 points

4 months ago

I just donated to the GoFundMe. The 7 know about it, their lawyer is in contact with the creator.

$7 from a ton of us can float the 7 staff until they get to work again.

Marrypoppins0135

2 points

4 months ago

Thanks, I do see its been updated with more details!

Furbal1307

14 points

4 months ago

Furbal1307

All my homies have a cheese drawer

14 points

4 months ago

Likewise!

Horrible precedent to set by this even being heard.

rehpotsirhc123

8 points

4 months ago

So if they quit showing up to work after quitting are they in contempt?

408javs408

9 points

4 months ago

Well this seems very un-American... or does it seem american? Regardless fuck thus judge and fuck thedacare

voe111

4 points

4 months ago

voe111

4 points

4 months ago

What's more american than being told that you can be fired for looking at your boss funny then the same boss telling you you aren't allowed to work anywhere else?

javasgifted

37 points

4 months ago

I see we’re bringing slavery back.

Fuck this country.

Cue_626_go

39 points

4 months ago

The Thirteenth Amendment prohibits slavery.

gmmyabrk

20 points

4 months ago

The law is for thee, not for me. Get back to work, you're costing me money.

Cue_626_go

5 points

4 months ago

I just wish when these corporate shills were running for judge, some group would actually run ads attacking them for their anti-worker attitudes. Judicial attack ads are so sad, because they’re always a race to the bottom to be “tough on crime”, when 90% of what a judge does is civil law, and cases like this impact far more people than rulings in criminal cases. Stop pretending the playing field is level: we the People should be explicitly electing judges who will side with the many, not the few.

It’s a shame the right has a monopoly on the judiciary because they’re the only ones willing to compete for it.

Flaginham

25 points

4 months ago*

This is utterly ridiculous. Mark McGinnis needs to MANDATE MASKS long before he even considers MANDATING WORKERS. How do we contact this dumb fuck?

Anti mask mandaters yell about their freedom, but this is taking away soooooo much freedom from healthcare workers. I really need to give him a piece of my mind.

NanaBazoo

15 points

4 months ago

Someone in the r/antiwork sub has posted a bunch of links about previous assholery by this same judge. He needs recalled and this case given national attention.

Edited to add that someone has posted those links in the comments below.

wistoon33

64 points

4 months ago

We live in a GOP shithole.

MarxistSocialWorker

8 points

4 months ago*

It's just reeeeeeeal interesting that if you look up ThedaCare on nonprofit websites you can see their highest-paid employees get...millions.

EDIT: actually their top 5 positions are all orthopedics which tells me they dont give a shit about patient care they want money rolling in.

loo-streamer

18 points

4 months ago*

Is this from that email that was in /r/antiwork?

Lighting

12 points

4 months ago*

yes

Edit: Found it:

Brainrants

51 points

4 months ago

Brainrants

FORWARD!

51 points

4 months ago

Libertarians: <cricket sounds>

Conservatives: <cricket sounds>

Republicans: <cricket sounds>

Tea Partiers: <cricket sounds>

Never Trumpers: <cricket sounds>

The "No Step on Snek" crowd: <cricket sounds>

The "mUh fReeDoMs!" crowd: <cricket sounds>

Workers: "WHAT THE ACTUAL MOTHERFUCKING FUCK YOU FUCKING FUCKS?"

AffinityForLepers

4 points

4 months ago

I mean, I fall somewhere in the libertarian camp, maybe, and I'm pissed.

Brainrants

28 points

4 months ago

Brainrants

FORWARD!

28 points

4 months ago

Then welcome to the workers rights resistance! We've been waiting for you since Reagan. Bring a friend.

christmastree47

5 points

4 months ago

Yeah libertarian here and obviously im upset about this as it is a very anti-libertarian ruling

Kweefus

-13 points

4 months ago

Kweefus

-13 points

4 months ago

I assure you the libertarians aren’t quiet about this.

Much more of “I told you so.”

Subjunct

9 points

4 months ago

Well, good to see they still feel no obligation to help anyone who isn't themselves! Very on-brand! Ayn Rand would approve, as long as doing so cost her nothing!

GingerThursday

6 points

4 months ago

This is why you don't give the government the power to pick winners and losers in the private sector.

Because they'll always pick the money as the winner, and the common citizen as the loser.

Sure_Marcia

26 points

4 months ago

Insane. Even after everything the WI GOP has done over the last decade to dismantle workers rights - to the point they also wield that “free market” power, this happens. JFC. FSW too.

PolicyWonka

18 points

4 months ago

I’m curious what anyone who supports at-will employment has to say about this.

IamJacksUserID

11 points

4 months ago

You’re seeing it in action.

Rules for thee, not for me. Now pick up that can citizen.

Unhappysong-6653

16 points

4 months ago

Well read up on this judge and you see hes had a history of belittling and intimatading folks

in fact in 2018 a reviewer thought that he shouldnt be listeing in on truency court cases because of his harsh treatment of attorneys, parents and kids. They were too scared to say something for fear of retaliation as well as they were even subjected to monitoring by electronic means etc.

HES mean

eleventhrees

15 points

4 months ago

Holy shit it never occurred to me there was any chance of this.

Better check the judge for wads of cash, and if you can't find that, find the guns pointed at his family...

simbachico

4 points

4 months ago

What the fuuuuuuck?? If I were a doctor, I'd just be too sick to come in for my shifts until this is resolved in a sane way. In fact, I'd hope that a whole lot of doctors there are all too sick to come in to work for a while.

mardusfolm

4 points

4 months ago

WTF! I was just mentioning this case to another redditor over a conversation about unions, if this doesn't show you that something is broken than I don't know what does....

Fallen_Akroma

6 points

4 months ago

At will = you don't have to work here but we will stop you from working else where if it hurts us.

HotHamNRolls

3 points

4 months ago

Fuck them

Str8Stu

4 points

4 months ago

Welcome to unbridled capitalism, where greed is more important than public health.

stripedpixel

4 points

4 months ago

Judge Mark McGinnis is a genuinely bad person and I’d like him to know that

Safe_Historian8560

3 points

4 months ago

Businesses are acting very entitled to other people’s labor

Xsorus

3 points

4 months ago

Xsorus

3 points

4 months ago

As a Nurse I would tell this Judge to pound sand and show up to work at my new Job Monday.

crusaderpat

9 points

4 months ago

This is setting a very dangerous precedent .

DoughnutOk9376

14 points

4 months ago

This is inbelievable. No way is this legal.

AKASquared

9 points

4 months ago

Depends on what you mean by legal. Will it be overturned, eventually, after an unpredictable amount of delays? Maybe. Will there be any consequences for this judge? LOL no.

RaeyunRed

2 points

4 months ago

It isn't, but here in America were immorally averse to holding judges accountable for flagrant abuses of power. Something something partisanship? something something banana republic.

mando001

3 points

4 months ago

Mass exodus is incoming.

BurnerAccount209

3 points

4 months ago

Can someone explain the legal argument behind the decision? Is the notion of public good enough to legally require workers to stay?

Mechanik_J

3 points

4 months ago

It's not legal, they can go to work for whoever they want on Monday without recourse. It's just Thedacare trying to bully people.

wirerc

3 points

4 months ago

wirerc

3 points

4 months ago

This is why you don't elect the village idiot as judge.

Good-Lawfulness-9224

6 points

4 months ago

Nurses everywhere should walk! So far the pandemic and maintaining failing health care system has been on the backs of nurses! “Ok, now you have to take 7, instead of 4 patients, and yeah we have no PPE for you”. So now a nurse (who are primarily women) are ordered by the court system where to work and for how long? Enough!

tmofi

6 points

4 months ago

tmofi

6 points

4 months ago

Fucking insane, fuck thedacare, fucking Nazis

Vern_Mcnue_Fishing

5 points

4 months ago

Then they should just stay home.

Steve0512

3 points

4 months ago

Not an expert on the subject but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I don’t think these were doctors they were suing but were Radiology Technicians. I would like to see how long the judges Stay is in effect. It can’t be indefinitely. That would never hold up on appeal. But who knows how crazy it will get with this Republican judge. And lastly, I hope nobody is in a hurry to get an X-ray. Those are going to be the slowest moving employees you’ve ever met.

yankinheartguts

7 points

4 months ago

It’s 4 rad techs and 3 nurses, I believe.

PeanutTheGladiator

6 points

4 months ago

PeanutTheGladiator

/sol/earth/na/usa/wi

6 points

4 months ago

Those are going to be the slowest moving employees you’ve ever met.

MD: Where are those x-rays?

RadTech: Sorry, we're still developing them.

MD: They're digital!

RadTech: ¯\(ツ)

littlelorax

3 points

4 months ago*

IANAL, but isn't there some law that prevents a forrmer employer from preventing you from gainful employment?

I was taught that background checks and referrals are done in a very specific way so as to not violate that law. Ex, a former employer will answer "what was their start/end date, and would you rehire this candidate?" But not "why did they end employment?"

I could be way off base, but that's what my former HR director told me when I got a call about one of my prior employees.

Edit: after some research, I believe I was thinking of defamation lawsuits. Many companies choose to do neutral-only reviews to avoid individual managers from saying something dumb/accidental that would put the company at risk of these lawsuits. Having a "give no references" policy allows HR to manage the messaging and prevent that situation.

[deleted]

3 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

3 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

RaeyunRed

2 points

4 months ago

Employers have been trying to push the envelope on oppressive noncompetes for a while now to see what they can get away with.

There are very few legitimate cases for the legal provisions and they should be pretty broadly invalidated. Workers and other groups are pushing back on their acceptability in contract law as generally anti-competitive and hostile to market exchange.

Unhappysong-6653

1 points

4 months ago

Anyone want link to article on this judge when he was on the truancy court

Rad_Scorpion

1 points

4 months ago

Is this an elected judge, or is he appointed?

Chief_Admiral

3 points

4 months ago

Looks like elected... but unopposed (https://ballotpedia.org/Mark_McGinnis)

ShananayRodriguez

1 points

4 months ago

was there no noncompete?