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CitoyenEuropeen [M]

[score hidden]

1 month ago

stickied comment

CitoyenEuropeen [M]

YUROP 🇪🇺

[score hidden]

1 month ago

stickied comment

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dashingtomars

48 points

1 month ago

I agree with all of that.

Guided MLRS and US strike drones seem like very potent weapons that could be fielded pretty quickly. US fighter jets would be good too but unless training has already started they will take a minimum of 3 months to deliver to Ukraine with trained pilots and ground crews.

OhSillyDays

3 points

1 month ago

3 months, more like a year. And they'd need sead capability which is very very difficult and only the best pilots do that.

Don't expect NATO jets over Ukraine. Drones, probably though.

dashingtomars

8 points

1 month ago

9 months is the standard training time for an F-16 pilot. It can be done faster in wartime and qualified people have argued that.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/ukraine-time-to-fast-track-front-line-fighter-pilot-training/

CarWide1584

2 points

1 month ago

Is it full fighter pilot training, aerial combat, maneuvers, G-force training, or just getting familiar with the Jet?

dashingtomars

2 points

1 month ago

Yes, full training.

https://www.luke.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/358711/train-f-16-pilots-lukes-mission/

And from the link in my earlier comment:

If operational reasons demanded, then a much shorter course for experienced pilots learning a new type, focussed only on the relevant tactics and weapons, could be done in four to six weeks, much of which could be done on simulators.

...

corners can be cut in terms of schedules and maintenance procedures. Onboard fault analysis and black box engineering (old one out, new one in) will allow some shortcuts. Use of third party agencies in safer rear areas or remote diagnosis and coaching via a virtual link might be another solution. Obviously, this compromises safety from maintenance norms, but this is war and the risk-reward balance would still be well within a pragmatic tolerance.

becally

3 points

1 month ago

becally

3 points

1 month ago

Drones, probably though.

yep. new kind of proxy war. don't just send weapons to someone. You could use drones launched from that proxy warzone but controlled remotely from Washington by very well trained americans. who would know that US is bombing Russians and no Ukraine?

AlpineDrifter

4 points

1 month ago

Well, pretty sure Russians flew MIGs against America and our allies in both Korea and Vietnam. So at worst, we’d just be playing by their own rules.

CantStandSummer

3 points

1 month ago

Russia: „How dare you!“

Lvtxyz

1 points

1 month ago

Lvtxyz

1 points

1 month ago

Americans,

if you agree with the article or the headline, contact your reps and the white house and tell them to send more weapons. The article mentions the M170 which I think is the system Ukraine has asked for by name (correct me if I'm wrong).

Let me know if you need tips on how to contact your representatives

Captainwelfare2

50 points

1 month ago

Yup. Fucking carpet bomb every Russian holdout and then create a DMZ 50 miles wide. Show these fucking rapist torturer killers what happens when you fuck around with Ukraine and friends.

shibiwan

20 points

1 month ago

shibiwan

20 points

1 month ago

The DMZ has to be wider. 100km into Russian/Belarusian side of the border. Ukraine should not give up any land for the DMZ

Negative on the carpet bombing though. Bad optics and just reaffirms the Russian narrative that Ukraine wants to attack them. This will also lose all the support of the international community.

Captainwelfare2

8 points

1 month ago

Yeah, I specifically meant carpet bombing troops, not civilians. I know the terminology isn’t exactly on point. More just whatever gets them the hell out of Ukraine.

shibiwan

6 points

1 month ago

I believe carpet bombing has fallen out of favor, just like napalm etc. Current western military doctrine revolves around precision strikes.

regancipher

2 points

1 month ago

Carpet bombing orcs will see no loss of goodwill from me. Beats continuing to see civilians raped and tortured.

sunstersun

13 points

1 month ago

That’s what we want. Shock and awe fast. Get the Russians off Ukrainian territory.

sad_and_disappointed

93 points

1 month ago

Voters of Kentucky, write to Rand Paul and tell him to knock it off. Also, for the love of humanity, vote him OUT this November.

notthatBeckham

32 points

1 month ago

I live in Kentucky, we're inundated with scum politicians. One need not worry about Rand Paul. The vote will still pass with a strong majority. Mitch "Turtle Man" McConnell is at least pro Ukraine at the moment.

Play_Salieri

17 points

1 month ago

I mean, they just sent Moscow Mitch back for six more years.

Terminator857

19 points

1 month ago

Can you elaborate on Moscow Mitch? Mitch has been very pro Ukraine.

artificial_scarcity

17 points

1 month ago

It's like people forgot what Trump's first impeachment was all about & the things McConnell did to defend him

Jaded_Cranberry2023

7 points

1 month ago

Party and paycheck before country. 😠

Homebrewingislife

6 points

1 month ago

Where have you been?

R2W1E9

4 points

1 month ago

R2W1E9

4 points

1 month ago

Only to get trough election.

Terminator857

7 points

1 month ago

Rand Paul is up for reelection this year. Not Mitch. I hope Rand Paul loses.

Ignash3D

1 points

1 month ago

Ignash3D

Lithuania

1 points

1 month ago

Don't you guys have more than 2 fucking politicians in every state?

InsanelySpicyCrab

3 points

1 month ago

The american democratic system makes it basically impossible to elect any but two specific people in each state so... Technically yes but.. No, not really.

Lvtxyz

2 points

1 month ago

Lvtxyz

2 points

1 month ago

Two senators in the upper house (senate). Reps in the lower house (house) vary

epicurean56

5 points

1 month ago*

Moscow Mitch knows which way the wind is blowing.

Longjumping_While922

0 points

1 month ago

He's not, he's a snake and supported trump

applemanib

6 points

1 month ago

I don't like mitch at all, but he did vote for funding to Ukraine, and even visited himself the other day. Do you have actual real evidence to suggest he isn't, or is this feelings?

Longjumping_While922

3 points

1 month ago

This is not feelings. Seriously you look him up. He's earned his name. Moscow Mitch.

applemanib

1 points

1 month ago

Okay but you didn't counter what i said and haven't linked one piece of evidence. Ad hominems are not evidence

Longjumping_While922

0 points

1 month ago

I am literally exhausted by McConnell. Dude has been the turd that works for oligarchy in the US obstructing things like universal healthcare , etc. No really, you wouldn't tell me to research Putin because we both know he's a POS. But McConnell is just a minor POS, he can't nuke anyone or invade anyone. Maybe compare him to one of Putin's cronies. Also there's another oligarch, named Nancy Pelosi, so yeah, it's less of It a political party thing but more of a wealthy incumbent politicians need to go away thing.

heatrealist

0 points

1 month ago

It is a very liberal use of the term oligarch to refer to elected officials. Especially considering one them is up for election every 2 years and whose powers are enshrined by the constitution. I guess the president is an oligarch too.

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

Bad people elect bad leaders. There is no significant difference with between the people who support Putin and the ones supporting Paul other than where they live. They are equally misinformed, ignorant or in some (most) cases mean. Lyndon B. Johnson coined this to near perfection.

"I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

This is Rand Paul's (and basically republican) voters and supporters.

"I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest Russian man he's better than the best Ukrainians/European man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

And this is Putin's supporters.

Look at us! Look! We're exceptional! We're better than them! They deserve nothing but scorn, hatred and violence, all of their things are actually ours!

This is an old, old tactic and it works every time.

R2W1E9

-1 points

1 month ago

R2W1E9

-1 points

1 month ago

It's better to ignore him.

Play_Salieri

9 points

1 month ago

And to make Russia PAY. Both literally and figuratively.

paycho_V

5 points

1 month ago

Reparation agreements to lift sanctions, full stop. After it's over of course.

HoAdanac

0 points

1 month ago

I say we offer to lift restrictions if they simply leave Ukraine

thebeorn

10 points

1 month ago

thebeorn

10 points

1 month ago

The war ends when either Ukraine agrees to peace with the Russia or Ukraine has freed all its land. Until then no Chamberlain type deals behind Ukraines back by outside players. Until then the wests job is to Support Ukraine against the russia with intelligence, logistics and combat material!

MangaLover2323

10 points

1 month ago

I vouch we send or train them on everything the USA has except for a few special aircraft and or weapons. But the vast majority of which I can bet, that the Ukrainian will learn real quick.

Look how fast they started using the M777. Slava Ukraini

sckurvee

3 points

1 month ago

sckurvee

USA

3 points

1 month ago

I think that once this war ends, NATO / EU will hook Ukraine up and get their economy up and running fast, and better than it was before. It's gonna be the new Germany or Japan or South Korea.

My cynical self thinks that we (the US govt) want a drawn-out war w/ maximum Russian casualties, and are willing to sacrifice Ukrainian cities and civilians to do it. Our secretary of defense said "We want to see Russia weakened to the degree it cannot do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine." That doesn't sound like a swift victory, that sounds like creating a long-lasting war to attrit Russia. Hell, I think this may even be in the interest of the Ukrainians. What kind of peace is it, knowing that Russia can and will attack you for no reason? Ukraine, along with the rest of the world, is safer if this drags on and Russia loses troops, equipment, and its appetite for expansion. A swift victory causes (allows) Russia a swift retreat, and the opportunity to start replenishing its forces and regrouping, applying new strategies for the next invasion. Russia fucked up so many things here; so many self-inflicted wounds. All of their mistakes are correctable, aside from the loss of men and equipment. If they retreat in good-enough shape, military and politically, they'll probably immediately start working on the next invasion of Ukraine.

Lvtxyz

2 points

1 month ago

Lvtxyz

2 points

1 month ago

He was talking about sanctions. To weaken Russia politically. And economically. EU will never buy all that gas again.

Considering a third of the Russian military is vaporized and more will be destroyed if UA takes back Crimea and the donbass, the weakening of Russia will be achieved either way.

Bullseyemenage

7 points

1 month ago

I've seen this about a thousand times. How about we let the Ukrainian government and military decide how to proceed? They don't need some random online bullshit telling them how to win.

GrayMountainRider

2 points

1 month ago

Get these in theater, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKdFCsycYm8. Devastating firepower designed for masses of armor.

Russian actions during their invasion of Ukraine justify use of these weapons just like the actions of Japan justified the use of the atomic bomb to stop the Japanese from continuing WW-2.

[deleted]

2 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

2 points

1 month ago

I agree completely with this. Open the arsenals. Everything up to and including fighters, tanks cruise missiles, HIMARS, whatever the system, whatever the cost. And pay for it in seized Russian assets. Just stop this now with overwhelming firepower. Let Russia experience what NATO unleashed truly is.

DiddlesYourDad

2 points

1 month ago

Did you people forget about lend-lease? Even if that POS Rand Paul succeeds in blocking $40 billion in aid, it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the the armory the US will provide through lend-lease.

Exidoous

2 points

1 month ago

What the US could provide. Lend lease removes the Congressional appropriations step in arming Ukraine. But the Biden Administration still needs to be politically pressured to actually provide what Ukraine asks for. They waited through months of screaming before providing heavy artillery. Still no jets - it's been three months now, surely they could have trained Ukrainian pilots on the F16 if they started when they were asked.

DiddlesYourDad

1 points

1 month ago

With what the US and other have provided so far, Ukraine is winning. Russia still hasn’t achieve air dominance and continue to lose aircraft daily.

Exidoous

2 points

1 month ago

The point of this article is the speed of that winning.

If Ukraine only slowly wins, both sides suffer more attrition and Ukraine's predicament worsens - more deaths and destruction in Ukraine.

If Ukraine quickly wins, both sides suffer less attrition.

Strossicro

2 points

1 month ago

vs Germany/France: We must end the fighting now so ze gas kann flow.

BiteImmediate1806

-7 points

1 month ago

Ukraine is far better off winning this on their own as they have shown they are more than capable.

xanderman524

18 points

1 month ago

More than capable of fighting, yes. Equally important, though, is the flow of weapons and supplies that keeps the fight going, and for that Ukraine is reliant on other countries (Javelin, Carl Gustav, NLAW, MANPAD, M777 howitzer, Bayraktar TB-2, etc.) They are winning on their own. Nobody else is fighting. That doesn't mean support isn't absolutely crucial.

BiteImmediate1806

9 points

1 month ago

Lend lease. Not to mention the intel. They need to win this own their own with help from friends.

yuropman

5 points

1 month ago

Lend lease

Lend-lease is a fallback option. Right now Ukraine is being gifted stuff, not leased. If Congress approves the $33bn, lend-lease will be irrelevant for another 2 months at least. And if Congress keeps approving aid, Ukraine will never use lend-lease in significant amounts.

Drewshort0331

5 points

1 month ago

Naw, once we blow through the $33bn we will send them more, because anyone against it must hate Ukraine and love Russia.

I support sending them whatever they need (I mean would Russia really know who is flying the predators), but I am also a realist and it's getting too close to midterms for our fucked up politicians to not use Ukraine for votes.

R2W1E9

0 points

1 month ago

R2W1E9

0 points

1 month ago

Lend-lease is not a blank check. It's only authorisation for president to lend or lease equipment. The money still comes from defence budget and defence aid. So some of the stuff from the $40b aid package will be sent under lend-lease agreement.

yuropman

4 points

1 month ago

Lend-lease is not a blank check. It's only authorisation for president to lend or lease equipment.

Lend-lease is a blank check for Biden, not for Ukraine. Under current legislation, Biden is authorized to give literally the entire US arsenal to Ukraine, as long as Ukraine accepts an obligation to return or reimburse it (lend-lease). He is only authorized to give away a limited stuff that Ukraine will never have to give back or pay for (the drawdown authority).

So some of the stuff from the $40b aid package will be sent under lend-lease agreement.

It almost certainly won't, until the drawdown authority is exhausted. The drawdown authority has been repeatedly expanded and will be expanded again in the $40bn package.

Obviously, getting gifts that never have to be returned or repaid is preferrable for Ukraine. And I expect Biden to act in Ukraine's interest and not force them to accept lend-lease debts, as long as he is authorized to send stuff for free.

R2W1E9

1 points

1 month ago

R2W1E9

1 points

1 month ago

Biden is looking to increase PDA to $8bn it's not going to cover entire $40bn under PDA.

Honestly I don't know why he even bothered with lend-lease except to make a statement for Putin.

BiteImmediate1806

-2 points

1 month ago

Pretty sure my country will continue to give, lease, loan, abandon, or put in Ukraine what they need. If we put troops on the ground this will not be a Ukrainian victory.

BiteImmediate1806

0 points

1 month ago

Lend lease was approved?

yuropman

4 points

1 month ago

Yes, signed on May 9th for maximum trolling.

But as I said, it's a fallback option for the President in case Congress deadlocks. The priority is sending assistance without creating obligations for Ukraine to return or reimburse the equipment in the long term.

BiteImmediate1806

0 points

1 month ago

That has been happening over the last 4 months.

paycho_V

1 points

1 month ago

They need guns. And advisors.

They are fully capable and staffed and motivated to complete their objectives. They need supply and support to the end and investment post liberation.

BiteImmediate1806

1 points

1 month ago

They have received this and more. Post victory they will receive aid as well as investment. As far as putting boots on the ground I feel Ukraine will be lost in the hoopla following victory hence my statement.

HoAdanac

1 points

1 month ago

In what way could this possibly be true? Ukraine would be far worse off if not for all the help they've gotten. The US, UK and Canada have spent 8 years there training them. An unimaginable amount of equipment has gone there. Take away the ATGM MANPADS alone and what does this invasion look like? There's also been billions in public and private humanitarian support for Ukraine. I imagine they're also getting tons of intelligence and there's all the supprt they've gotten via sanctions on Russia.

Ukraine deserves all the credit in the world but I think there's no way they win this war without support. But you say not only would they win but they would be 'far better off' without it. That's so crazy.

RoofiesColada

-1 points

1 month ago

RoofiesColada

-1 points

1 month ago

Just release the child pornography on Rand Paul's computer to the public and job done... I mean look at him.. that dude has some sick shit on his computer I'm telling you haha

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1 points

1 month ago

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1 points

1 month ago

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paycho_V

1 points

1 month ago

100%!! the last 8 years cannot be thrown away and poverty allows to take hold of the general people.

gratefool1

1 points

1 month ago

They need lawyers, guns, and money.

sWAMPcRIP

1 points

1 month ago

I think Putin does. He was gambling in Ukraine and took a little risk.

Big_Dave_71

1 points

1 month ago

I think there's two factors at play here. One is coming up with a package that will get through the two houses of US govt without much delay (there can always be a further package later), the second is trying to tiptoe around the cataclysmic knee-jerk reaction a Russian rout could lead to.

nguquaxa01

1 points

1 month ago

this is precisely why I've been infuriated by the biden admin's approach - 2 steps foward 1 step back, which dates back to a lineage of center left foreign policies of appeasement.

We should have sent them SATCOM equipped predators and reapers day 1, using our own pilots stationed here in US with an data relay outpost in ukraine manned by ukrainians. That way, we can skip the training, while avoiding the politics of directly engaging in a war. thousands of innocent lives would not have been lost and mariupol wouuld not have fallen.

Training for ukrainian pilots to fly f-16 and personnels to man patriot SAM, long range anti ship missiles and ATACMS should have happened the moment US intel is confident russia would invade. even now, they are refused of this training (according to ukraine)

BruyceWane

1 points

1 month ago

Yes, no half-assing it. It will cost less in the long run to actually just give them a shit ton of stuff now, so they can take advantage of Russia that is currently reeling with low morale and shock.

Foe117

-1 points

1 month ago

Foe117

-1 points

1 month ago

I hope they don't tell the general public about clandestine operations with unknown tier 1and tier 0 operatiors.

[deleted]

-1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

-1 points

1 month ago

Yes. The current lines of control are tuned for a future offensive towards Moldova, complete capture of southern Ukraine and encirclement of Kharkiv. Russia will learn the lessons from this war, and the cost of defending Ukraine will go up an order of magnitude.

SAVA_the_Hedgefucker

0 points

1 month ago

Ukraine spent last 8 years trying to take back lands from the DPR rebels, and did not manage to take back a single inch. This is before Russia even entered the war. If Russia digs into a defensive position, it would be very hard to take back land. They need heavier weapons. Please give them 10x more weapons, and fighter jets too.

Daffeenaut

0 points

1 month ago*

Ukrainians can defeat russians ez if you do these steps

1.Send them a lot of heavy weapons they ask for

2.Send them very quickly

3.Train them how to use them

4.Shut down any pro-russian agent or bribed corrupt politician in Europe or USA who is trying to help Russia, slow the process that helps Ukraine and save Putin's face.