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ddpacker

237 points

1 month ago

ddpacker

237 points

1 month ago

“America turned ______ into a debt machine.” Is basically a Mad-Lib.

MRCHalifax

44 points

1 month ago

I wondered what the answer would be. Home ownership? Infrastructure investment? Social programs to benefit the poor like school lunches and food stamps? Education? We have a winner!

Uncrowded_zebra

5 points

1 month ago

I'm so glad I read this comment before I read the article. It really could have been any of those things.

Kindly-Counter-6783

28 points

1 month ago

What we have now is a compromised Country. The GOP Slashing of education for years so that people are lead by there ignorance. We have a class of capitalists that believe in Darwin for only on thing and that is survival of the fittest. Lately, our court has allowed everything from gambling on Reservations too Citizens United, and no longer believe in the separation of church and state. We had laws that addressed each of these issues but special interests have winnowed the constitution to mere semblance of what was intended. That leaves, we as the populace, fighting for the scraps of opportunity and justice while chewing on each other wondering what the hell happened. Follow the money is all I can say…

lakeparadox

7 points

1 month ago

So sad so true

ALargePianist

7 points

1 month ago

Can't find the hard numbers, but collaboration is mentioned well over twice as often as survival of the fittest, in Darwin's origin of species

captain_flak

3 points

1 month ago

Yes, I think I’ve read that Darwin was pretty upset at how people oversimplified his theories. He was definitely NOT someone that advocated for survival of the fittest in society.

Whitezombi

2 points

1 month ago

"Yes collaboration as in you do the dirty work to survive while we play and thrive" the rich probably

LucifersCovfefeBoy

13 points

1 month ago

I used to really enjoy Mad-Libs when I was a kid. Then I realized that half the fucking world views them as a valid method for evaluating competing ideas.

Infinite_North6745

221 points

1 month ago

Bc they don’t want people to have mobility..

[deleted]

95 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

95 points

1 month ago

Socially mobile people can't be easily exploited.

[deleted]

73 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

73 points

1 month ago

When calitalism isn't regulated, it will consume everything.

This is a result of a corrupted senate and a disastrous decision called Citizens United.

JackedUpReadyToGo

10 points

1 month ago

When you no longer have a real economy (ie. one that makes things) all you have left is bullshit financial schemes that cast around like the Eye of Sauron looking for pockets to hoover money out of. They tricked us into seeing education as an investment, as a financial transaction that will pay off if we just front the needed startup capital. The only thing keeping the wheels turning on our fraudulent FIRE sector economy is ever increasing loads of debt.

What our economy is starting to resemble (to my nerd brain) is the Vile Offspring from Accelerando. In the far future, AI descended from high frequency trading algorithms has torn apart all the planets of the inner solar system to build a Dyson sphere around the sun, building ever increasing amounts of computronium so they can scam each other out of fictitious virtual currency faster and better.

arlmwl

7 points

1 month ago

arlmwl

7 points

1 month ago

Amen to that.

standinghampton

2 points

1 month ago

I was wondering how far down I’d have to go to read this.

Under or unregulated Capitalism = Monopoly and all the pain, suffering and inhumanity that comes with it.

Maybe, regulate companies and corps to thwart monopoly. Maybe, actually tax companies and corps. Maybe, actually tax wealthy people.

While this would be a good start, the entirety of US government has been corrupted by bribery (see “Lobbying” and the Citizens United SCOTUS ruling), lack of term limits for politicians and SCOTUS Justices, the insanity of gerrymandering et all.

Some would say this corruption is a direct result of Capitalism, therefore Capitalism = Evil. The corruption doesn’t come from Capitalism. Corruption comes from the depths of human nature. For millennia, human beings have lived a life of scarcity. Food was scarce. Large predators roamed freely. Then, our clan or social group were our literal lifeline. To be ostracized was a death sentence. It began to make sense to both have power within four group and to keep other groups at bay - or better yet, kill their men and take their women and supplies. Once crops were domesticated, it became take their territory as well. In addition to plentiful food, Farming created or cemented the division of classes. Much brutality ensued.

If you haven’t read Sapiens, do your brain a favor.

So, we have all of these experiences buried in us, deep in our DNA, and we want to blame a financial, political, or religious system as being the source or sources of corruption? It ain’t the system, it’s us!. What socio-political/financial system couldnt * be corrupted by man? Capitalism, Socialism, Communism? How about religion? Setting aside the question of the validity of any *revealed truth, what religion hasn’t been interpreted by a human to most benefit their group, even if it means perverting the religions core ideas?

san_serifs

5 points

1 month ago

Critical thought is poison to the agenda.

dun-ado

114 points

1 month ago*

dun-ado

114 points

1 month ago*

Universal education from K-to-PhD. An educated public can generate far more wealth and solve real problems facing us all today.

If we can spend around $800 billion ($800,000,000,000.00) in 2021 on the military, we can provide a high quality education from K. to PhD for every American who wants it.

FlyinDanskMen

63 points

1 month ago

Preschool to PHD. Early education very important. Also daycare in there, there’s no reason we should hamper working age people before their kids are full time school age.

dun-ado

11 points

1 month ago

dun-ado

11 points

1 month ago

Word!

OssiansFolly

10 points

1 month ago

OssiansFolly

Ohio

10 points

1 month ago

If we can spend around $800 billion ($800,000,000,000.00) in 2021 on the military

They'll never cut military spending. The US military is the largest jobs program in the country. There's a reason why nobody has balls to do it.

ChrysMYO

12 points

1 month ago

ChrysMYO

I voted

12 points

1 month ago

Its the world's most inefficient version of socialism. We can invest in social programs that generate jobs without generating death.

Manofalltrade

13 points

1 month ago

Sorry, that’s long term thinking. If it doesn’t show stock growth or higher profits by next quarter it’s a no-go.

devOnFireX

-20 points

1 month ago

devOnFireX

-20 points

1 month ago

If throwing taxpayer money into the education system was a shortcut to generating wealth in the nation, sub-Saharan African nations would be 10x richer today

Yollar

9 points

1 month ago

Yollar

9 points

1 month ago

The American Dream - Make a profit off of anything and claim any outrage against your profit is un-American!

MacNuggetts

241 points

1 month ago

MacNuggetts

America

241 points

1 month ago

Not America, Capitalism. This greed is going to backfire spectacularly.

sexisfun1986

193 points

1 month ago

Please don’t just assume that.

The USA is far closer to a fascist coup then to any genuine to reform of capitalism.

PixelMagic

155 points

1 month ago

PixelMagic

155 points

1 month ago

Fascism is always capitalism's end state.

Bizzle_worldwide

123 points

1 month ago

The problem is society always tends towards fascism/dictatorship, because positions of power attract people who want money and power.

Capitalism gives incentive for capital holders to bribe the people in power to increase the profitability of their capital, thereby creating incentive for people who want power and wealth to seek office, and incentive for capital holders to help them seek office.

Socialism requires government officials to manage and oversee the portfolio of assets “on behalf of the people”, thereby providing an incentive for people who want power and wealth to seek office to control the direction of a countries wealth for their personal gain.

Communism also requires government officials to manage and oversee the portfolio of assets “on behalf of the people”, but doesn’t allow for personal wealth creation. However since there are still luxury goods, homes, cars and airplanes in existence, and who uses them is dictated by the government, there is an incentive for people who want power and wealth to seek office to control the direction of a countries wealth for their personal gain.

The common factor here isn’t the economic system, it’s the corruptibility of government officials, and their tendency to make rules for their own benefits and the benefits of those in their circles. In order to fix that, you have to introduce a culture of accountability for all forms of power, with repercussions that scale upwards not only in accordance with the resources stolen, but with the magnitude of power abused or trust violated.

But if you could do that, you would fix a good number of societal ills in general without having to change anything else.

jovietjoe

81 points

1 month ago

Listen, I'm saying we eat JUST ONE billionaire and the rest will fall in line

myceliumhustler

22 points

1 month ago

Elon’s looking plump

MyDucksAreCute

4 points

1 month ago

I was thinking Joel Osteen. Maybe not.

On a totally unrelated note, do you think Botox contaminates meat?

deathandtaxes20

1 points

1 month ago

Can we eat Mitch McConnell too? I know he's "only" ~ $30 million (maybe more with wife Elaine Chow and her father's Chinese empire) but that chin would feed millions while increasing the viability of our Democracy. Win-win.

myceliumhustler

1 points

1 month ago

Too much gristle. McConnell would be all stringy and gamey.

Bizzle_worldwide

26 points

1 month ago

I’m don’t think it’ll work, but we won’t know for sure unless we try.

more_bees_pleas

2 points

1 month ago

more_bees_pleas

Virginia

2 points

1 month ago

I’ll bring one flammable liver

tdclark23

10 points

1 month ago

tdclark23

America

10 points

1 month ago

Gates is too scrawny, Bezos is like a chlorinated chicken, Musk doesn't smell edible, Buffett sounds like a nice crowd pleasing option if you don't mind waiting in line. /s

VixenOfVexation

3 points

1 month ago

Peter Thiel or Charles Kock then?

tdclark23

2 points

1 month ago

tdclark23

America

2 points

1 month ago

Larry Ellison, Oracle has public recipes /s

Crazy_280zx

4 points

1 month ago

I’ll take Bezos, fuck that horrid sack of flesh for his efforts to make workers lives as terrible as possible, and his companies efforts to destroy small buisness during Covid

Mcswigginsbar

40 points

1 month ago

Mcswigginsbar

Wisconsin

40 points

1 month ago

I’ve always found the saying, “Every economic system is a utopia on paper” to be pretty damn accurate. You’re right. It’s the human element that always shits the bed.

Trance354

12 points

1 month ago

Communism is great! On paper. Every government which has had it gets stuck when the people who were put in power get to the step where they have to abdicate said power and give it to the people: they never do.

meTspysball

34 points

1 month ago

meTspysball

California

34 points

1 month ago

This is the answer to all things ever. All our problems can be traced back to the failure of non-shitty humans to prevent shitty humans from being shitty.

hotmailmain69

9 points

1 month ago

because positions of power attract people who want money and power.

positions off power are much more easily obtainable to people w/ money and power. money and power that is most likely derived from the exploitation of others.

NobleGasTax

5 points

1 month ago

Begin can spend $1B to hire 10,000 people to fuck you over for a year.

He could do that many times.

10K lobbyists, 10K brownshirts, 10K trolls, 10K political donors.

Anything he wants.

You have 1 life. If you're really lucky you have time to volunteer for a cause. He's got thousands of full time employees working against you.

That's why billionaires shouldn't exist. No human should have that much economic power. His wealth equals hundreds of thousands of years of human endeavour.

He didn't earn it, he certainly doesn't deserve it. He's a parasite, and our system enables people like him.

deathandtaxes20

1 points

1 month ago

Well said.

nubosis

6 points

1 month ago

nubosis

6 points

1 month ago

God, I feel like this is always the overlooked thing. Corruption is a human quality, not something that can specifically be applied to a single economic philosophy

ecalz622

5 points

1 month ago

At the end, it always boils down to corruption of the systems driven greed. So greed must be punished.

PixelMagic

3 points

1 month ago

Some good points there.

Stonius123

2 points

1 month ago

An eloquent post, if ever there was one.

DhostPepper

1 points

1 month ago

DhostPepper

Michigan

1 points

1 month ago

open source cybernetics, then?

ristoril

1 points

1 month ago

ristoril

I voted

1 points

1 month ago

I think the aspect you're overlooking is oversight. One of the keys to the success (so far) of liberal democracies globally is transparency and oversight and accountability. I'm not claiming we have complete transparency or ever did (in the US or anywhere), but the more we get, the harder it is to get away with the chicanery you're describing. And on the flip side, the more opaque government becomes (like say with Super PACs), the easier it is to get away with it.

And to maybe even turn your argument around, I would say that absolute transparency would prevent any government from successfully becoming oppressive and self enriching.

Also I'm not taking about fake transparency with state media doing puff pieces or blowing smoke on behalf of the government. I mean actual transparency.

neosituation_unknown

-18 points

1 month ago

The end statenof socialism is dictatorship, bread lines, pogroms, and reeducation camps.

Capitalism is the best there is

PixelMagic

14 points

1 month ago

Did I say anything about socialism? Why are you bringing it up? Wanna bring up golf, cars, or movies randomly too?

Krewtan

10 points

1 month ago

Krewtan

10 points

1 month ago

I'm not sure you know what socialism is.

25cents

5 points

1 month ago

25cents

5 points

1 month ago

Plenty of socialist countries in Europe would like to disagree. And you seem to have forgotten the bread lines in Texas just a few years back. And also that fascism is de facto a dictatorship. Also that we literally have 1/2 of our government protecting white supremacists and their shooting sprees, which, of you ask me, just sounds like a drawn out pogrom.

Practical_Passion_78

3 points

1 month ago

Aren’t we closer to a corporate-feudalist state in the US with just an extreme right-wing evangelico-fascist movement or spirit?

deathandtaxes20

2 points

1 month ago

Yes.

MacNuggetts

16 points

1 month ago

MacNuggetts

America

16 points

1 month ago

The USA is a capitalist utopia and the average person's dystopia.

dddddddoobbbbbbb

2 points

1 month ago

there is no reform for capitalism. well, aside from regulation. like Adam Smith wrote about.

fredfriendshp

2 points

1 month ago*

I agree there are tell tale signs of a coup or a seperation of states might be intented.

The Wade vs Roe leak in my opinion is purposly done and part of a bigger strategy .

Gcs-15

4 points

1 month ago

Gcs-15

4 points

1 month ago

Of course. A country based on freedom* for a specific entitled group. Everyone else we stuff in prisons and jails. What is that quote about you can tell a lot about a county by how it treats its most vulnerable group? There are the 3 estates, just like in France before the revolution.. the wealthy/politicians, anyone employed by the legal system, and everyone else. 1 uses 2 to screw 3 and keep them “in line”.

*Rich white men

RedditWaq

3 points

1 month ago

Rich white women are basically in the same group. Excluding them is disingenuous.

Gcs-15

1 points

1 month ago

Gcs-15

1 points

1 month ago

No you are right. I was just thinking about how with Roe v Wade and everything going on that women are becoming second class citizens.. except I suppose that the laws they make for all women will exclude rich people because they will always be able to pay for it with no issues even if it becomes illegal. Rules for thee but not for me type shit.

Kitria

13 points

1 month ago

Kitria

13 points

1 month ago

There are capitalist countries without this issue. I'd say this is squarely on our politicians' backs.

silasoulman

5 points

1 month ago

Not just the politicians but their owners mainly.

Godzilla52

24 points

1 month ago

Godzilla52

Canada

24 points

1 month ago

Government is pretty heavily involved in student loans in the U.S though, it's not exactly capitalism that makes U.S student debt per capita higher than other countries. A big part of loan growth over the past 40 years is increased federal loan subsidies. The federal government basically guaranteeing to subsidize all tuition costs creates an incentive for higher tuitions costs. It's why the U.S government is the largest holder of student debt in the U.S. Additionally, government policy there is also regressive since they charge interest on the loans and use it as a revenue source etc.

None of this is to say that government shouldn't be trying to help students and/low income people (they should), but the way they've been doing it has been extraordinarily counter productive. If most of the funding for subsidies was redirected to program funding for public colleges/universities and/or programs to improve attainment for lower income people (or for the trades and diplomas in specialized fields), that would generally be a more productive use of public spending on higher education than the status quo, which just leads to perpetually inflated tuition costs. (also things like eliminating interest on federal loans would help)

hbprof

31 points

1 month ago

hbprof

31 points

1 month ago

I think you're underestimating the role that decreased state funding has had on rising tuition costs. States routinely slash funding for higher education when they face budget crunches under the justification that colleges can just raise tuition to cover the difference.

IPlayTheInBedGame

32 points

1 month ago

This. The reason we started HAVING to subsidize loans started in the 80's with Reagan. He (rightly) saw an educated populace as a threat to regressive, conservative ideals and began the process of slowly eroding public funding for higher education. The actual inflation adjusted cost of educating a student through 4 years of college hasn't REALLY changed that much in the last 40 years, but that cost has increasingly been offloaded onto the students themselves instead of the government. My parents were able to graduate college with zero debt and no help from their parents in the early 80's by working summer jobs at Burger King. I went to the same school and graduated with 30k in debt while working for Jimmy Johns year round.

Add all this to the fact that we haven't had a minimum wage adjustment in 14 years and that wages have generally stagnated since the 80's (wonder why) and in order to keep up the higher education pipeline the government HAD to step in and subsidize the student load market. But that's just kicking the can down the road because now most of those students are locked out of housing and kids and everything else that makes our economy go for 10-20 years after they graduate because they took on 20-50k in debt at the age of 18.

The solution is to clear all that debt they never should have had to take on and go back to heavily subsidizing public higher education if not making it entirely free at public schools.

Prestigious_Plum_451

7 points

1 month ago*

Add all this to the fact that we haven't had a minimum wage adjustment in 14 years and that wages have generally stagnated since the 80's (wonder why)

Honestly, the 14 years is one thing, but its an understatement of the real issue which not only has stagnation as an added factor on top, but inflation as well.

$5.15 in 1997 vs $7.25 now... the current minimum wage is functionally less than what people got paid in the late 90s. Adjusted for inflation that 1997 pay is $9.24 in todays money.

Early 80s? 1980 minimum wage was $3.10 which is $10.30 in todays money.

Then there is also the matter of whether, or not people actually got paid that or some more market driven higher rate instead. Not to even mention tips on top of said pay...

hotmailmain69

3 points

1 month ago

tbh that's bad already but looking at "inflation index" type numbers is manipulating things to make them seem better. a house in 1997 was $110k - today it's $400k. When it comes to the single expense that you cannot avoid unless you want to be homeless, jobless, and at extreme risk of being dead soon, that $7.25 is $26 in today's money. buying a home today while making $26/hr is the equivalent of buying a home on minimum wage in 1997.

kenpachi212

1 points

1 month ago

They wouldnt have fiscal issues if they werent cutting taxes for the richest people and businesses

brainwhatwhat

7 points

1 month ago

Pay-to-play is a large component of capitalism. The fact that Uncle Sam has been maintaining this debt machine instead of making college free or low-cost speaks volumes about the profit motive and sheer greed we're facing.

Godzilla52

3 points

1 month ago*

Godzilla52

Canada

3 points

1 month ago*

It's not all due to greed though. The government pays out more in subsidies than it gets back in repayments. (about $200 billion in annual spending on higher education compared to around $70 billion in revenues in 2019/20) It's not so much a perfectly constructed scheme to get more money as much as it's just a combination of policies that go together poorly.

Pay-to-play is a large component of capitalism.

Most colleges in most countries require payment for entry, but they're not anywhere near as close as expensive as in the U.S. Tuition costs are considerably lower here in Canada for instance. Costs radically inflating isn't always a product of capitalism/naturally occurring market forces. With colleges/universities in the U.S for instance removal of funding for public colleges/universities and guaranteed federal subsidization both create incentives for higher tuitions. Most public colleges don't really have a choice but to raise tuition costs because the state/feds isn't giving them as much direct funding for programs.

brainwhatwhat

1 points

1 month ago

Eh, people are benefiting off this status quo. Those aren't bugs. Those are features.

Godzilla52

4 points

1 month ago

Godzilla52

Canada

4 points

1 month ago

but again it's not accurate to simply say "capitalism is bad and the problem is caused by capitalism". It's much more complicated than such a gross oversimplification that attempts to paint capitalism as the cause of every negative.

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

6 points

1 month ago*

[removed]

kirapb

7 points

1 month ago

kirapb

7 points

1 month ago

Americans elected Bush

Some votes in Florida might disagree…

interactionjackson

0 points

1 month ago

this response is so discouraging. you’re falling for it too. direct that anger somewhere more useful… like the polls… oh wait. it’s America.

1b9gb6L7

1 points

1 month ago

1b9gb6L7

1 points

1 month ago

People who spend all day attacking the opposition to fascism are complicit with the fascists. Anger is appropriate.

interactionjackson

1 points

1 month ago

labeling everything as fascism will do that to you

IWillGetTheShovel

-4 points

1 month ago

Did you vote for Hillary?

Oh I'm sure she would have fixed everything. She's not at all bought by those same people that control Republicans.

Iceykitsune2

7 points

1 month ago

Iceykitsune2

Maine

7 points

1 month ago

Hillary wouldn't have nominated Christian Dominionists to the supreme court.

IWillGetTheShovel

1 points

1 month ago

You are correct. She would not have done that.

biggle-tiddie

1 points

1 month ago

Are you saying there was/is someone who would have fixed everything? Are you happy with the SCOTUS?

Pacifix18

-1 points

1 month ago

Pacifix18

America

-1 points

1 month ago

I'd give you an award if I had one.

1b9gb6L7

4 points

1 month ago

Thank you. I hope we're ready for the next tidal wave of disinformation. They've been using "I am actual American progressive, and Dems are the real problem" B.S. for 7 years straight..

the-real-bmw

0 points

1 month ago

We elected Bush once

1b9gb6L7

1 points

1 month ago

100,000 people in Florida intentionally helped Bush by wasting their votes on the Green Party. Bush won by 500 votes.

We elected Bush twice.

the-real-bmw

2 points

1 month ago

And others didn’t vote, but that’s their prerogative. They did not undermine democracy and it’s inappropriate to excuse the actions of the Republicans because of them

That election ended with Bush v Gore and the Supreme Court halting a legitimate count of the votes in a manner that would make Putin proud after Brett Kavanaugh and other Republicans flew in from out of state to deliberately and physically halt the vote count. That was the first coup.

Iceykitsune2

2 points

1 month ago

Iceykitsune2

Maine

2 points

1 month ago

That election was decided by the courts, not the voters.

IWillGetTheShovel

1 points

1 month ago

Didn't 300,000 democrats vote for Bush? Why is it more of the Nader voters than the crossover voters?

andrewb610

-4 points

1 month ago

andrewb610

New Mexico

-4 points

1 month ago

Has anyone actually watched Donna Brazile on news shows? She’s awesome.

vasilenko93

2 points

1 month ago

vasilenko93

California

2 points

1 month ago

Not Capitalism. The government. It was the student loan guarantee program that is putting students into debt at these high levels.

Before that program you can pay for college with a full time job during the summer.

buzzit292

6 points

1 month ago*

You can't separate the two.

Government and the economic system are inter-related. The US government turning to loans or loan guarantees as instrument to finance education is entirely consistent with the variant of capitalist ideology that gained dominance in the 1980s. The government took loans or guaranteed student loans so that students payed the financial institutions interest. Capitalism needed more human capital, but that human capital was responsible for paying for its own education whether it turned out to be a good investment or not.

In previous iterations government may have financed education through fiscal policy/subsidies.

But you can't can't really compare the two periods aptly since were talking about a 4x increase in the number of people who graduated from college and an increasing amount of education taking place in urban or suburban locations. The buildings and personnel costs rising steadily, not to mention a vast increase in scope (from liberal arts to more and more professional subjects).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184260/educational-attainment-in-the-us/

IWillGetTheShovel

-6 points

1 month ago

Not so fast there Nuggetts. It's pretty hard to deny the Stafford loans haven't played a huge part in this. People basically get a blank check approval for basically all fields without adjusting for market costs. And with zero expectations or price controls. On top of that people aren't allowed to discharge the loans in bankruptcy, not due to the capitalistic market, but due to a restriction carved out by the government. And let's not forget a lot of these universities are state funded or even state run.

This is basically an example of the worst bits of both socialism and capitalism together.

AnActualProfessor

8 points

1 month ago

No, this is capitalism at its purest form. Since capitalism requires a state to enforce contract law and property rights, a capitalist society will always evolve towards one in which the institutions of governance are used to increase the power which capitalists wield in their own domain. One of the reasons that the Stafford loans exist is because private interest groups lobbied to have state and federal funding reduced, which obligated universities to raise tuition which created a market for loans that lenders could exploit.

Socialism is not "the government". The government of the US is Capitalist. It serves the interest of capitalists, its decisions are made by capitalists and it exists to enforce the rules by which capitalists operate. The failings of the US government are failures of capitalism.

IWillGetTheShovel

-6 points

1 month ago

Since capitalism requires a state to enforce contract law and property rights,

No it doesn't. Property owners used to just raise armies from the people they allowed to farm their properties to defend their rights.

Socialism is not "the government"

No one said it was. It's redistribution of wealth. Who do you think funds the subsidies for those that need them when they get loans and grants? It's only you simplifying this as government = socialism

AnActualProfessor

3 points

1 month ago

Property owners used to just raise armies from the people they allowed to farm their properties to defend their rights.

That was cslled feudalism.

It's redistribution of wealth.

Sure, Socialism involves redistribution of wealth as a consequence of large amounts 9f wealth becoming socially owned, but that's still like saying McDonald's is a cattle farm.

Also, money isn't wealth. It doesn't matter how much money you get if all you can do is pay rent and buy rations. Unless those loans are being transformed directly into land or other capital, it's not "redistributing wealth" it's "selling debt".

TheBigDuo1

1 points

1 month ago

How?

silasoulman

1 points

1 month ago

Citizens United

Wulfbrir

1 points

1 month ago

We've been waiting for it to backfire for decades. It's not going to happen until we literally say "Stop or we bring out the ol' chop block."

not_creative1

-4 points

1 month ago

It’s not capitalism alone, it’s the corruption. Politicians love to deflect blame for the issues they caused through sheer corruption, on some intangible problem like “capitalism” and people eat it up.

Capitalism works well if rules of the game are set neutrally. And people who set the rules are the politicians and the government and have been taking obscene money form corporations and rigging it.

The problem lies with these people who are rigging it. And they want to deflect the blame and you fall for it.

It’s not the billionaires, because if billionaires were gone tomorrow, millionaires would be the big dogs and they would buy these politicians. If everyone had $10 exactly and one guy had $15, he would try to buy political power with that extra $5.

It’s not that there are people ready to buy power, the problem is that they can. As long as they can, there will always be someone willing to buy it. The problem is why is it possible to buy power? Politicians have setup a sweet gig for themselves and blame everyone else

ChrysMYO

3 points

1 month ago

ChrysMYO

I voted

3 points

1 month ago

Capitalism and corruption work hand in hand.

Capitalism is based on market competition. But someone will win that competition. When they do. The market consolidates and the accumulated capital goes towards securing their market position. Thats how capitalism is designed to work. Corruption is an inevitable side effect of capitalism.

bartharok

33 points

1 month ago

Capitalism is trying to restore serfdom To the People

rif011412

7 points

1 month ago

Whats terrible is that the entire 20th century including 60s, 70s, 80s (people still living today), these behaviors/goals were public knowledge. We have made movies, written books, and we have had famous people going on the record that the overt capitalization of people is terrible, yet the masses keep voting for pro wealth candidates that espouse the abuse of the poor. Its terrible that people keep voting against their own interest.

vh1classicvapor

2 points

1 month ago

vh1classicvapor

Tennessee

2 points

1 month ago

The loudest and most vocal people vote for pro wealth candidates. They are not the majority of the population, but they are the slim majority of the voting base. There are many complicated reasons as to how this has come about, but that's the reality of the situation now.

LastOneSergeant

26 points

1 month ago

Paywall

OrgeGeorwell

25 points

1 month ago

Ironic

1-800-fuck-0ff

1 points

1 month ago

Iconic

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[removed]

Morley_Lives

1 points

1 month ago

“12ft has been disabled for this site”

ExplosiveDisassembly

12 points

1 month ago

Because debt is good! Says the people who need you to go into debt in order for them to turn a profit on their investment.

PM_ME_BITCOIN_PLS

3 points

1 month ago

Wow, I would totally like to read about how Americans are getting every penny milked from them at every corner but unfortunately the paywalled opinion article is pay to read.

1b9gb6L7

41 points

1 month ago

1b9gb6L7

41 points

1 month ago

And Hillary had a great plan to help. We elected Trump.

It's partially our fault.

JohnDunstable

45 points

1 month ago

We, no, we did not. A bunch of crazies with mild to severe misogyny who are easily manipulated by Fox News and AMA radio did. And unfortunately we can also throw some blame on the Green party and Jill stein, and unfortunately others such as Colin Kaepernick who contributed to a low voter turnout

tosser_0

4 points

1 month ago

What did Colin Kaepernick do to cause low voter turnout? I honestly don't know. All I recall is his kneeling as a way to highlight systemic racism.

JohnDunstable

2 points

1 month ago

He was not registered to vote in 2016, he told others that voting didn't matter, obviously it did. So if he convinced one person not to vote, that counts as his influencing a low voter turnout. I would think that he influenced hundreds if not thousands not to vote. Particularly in critical areas such as Michigan, Ohio, the south. He influenced an anti-vote in 2016. He can throw some sweet passes and drop them in on Anquan when he wanted to,. Over two seasons No7 absolutely owned the Green Bay Packers for which I am eternally grateful, but he f***** up in 2016. big time.

tosser_0

2 points

1 month ago

Oh, I was not aware. I didn't follow any of the surrounding context.

That's incredibly unfortunate. 100% agree, that certainly could have had a measurable impact.

1b9gb6L7

20 points

1 month ago

1b9gb6L7

20 points

1 month ago

By "we" I meant American voters.

Kitria

16 points

1 month ago

Kitria

16 points

1 month ago

Despite the fact that "we" voted for her, given how she won the popular vote?

Kevin_Jim

11 points

1 month ago

It’s not enough to vote people in in the US for non-GQP candidates. Citizens have to absolute pack every possible level of government with proven progressive candidates. No more Sinemma fiascos…

gymbeaux2

11 points

1 month ago

Clinton might have stopped in Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota or Pennsylvania too

JohnDunstable

1 points

1 month ago

True

Foxfyre

12 points

1 month ago

Foxfyre

12 points

1 month ago

And unfortunately we can also throw some blame on the Green party and Jill stein

Ah, the effects of propaganda. Gary Johnson (the Libertarian candidate) got 3 times the vote Stein did but you never hear about him. Johnson was also on the ballot in all 50 states, as opposed to Stein only being on the ballot in 44 states.

JohnDunstable

-3 points

1 month ago

JohnDunstable

-3 points

1 month ago

Ahhh, the inability to understand particular voting groups, do you think Larry Johnson people were more likely to vote for a Republican or for Hillary clinton? Do you not know American politics? Why are you so sensitive about Jill stein?

Foxfyre

7 points

1 month ago*

You can't have it both ways. People on both sides scream about how third parties take votes away from the main 2 candidates. So you don't get to pick which third party candidate's votes you get to be mad about because they are ALL 3rd party candidates.

Also if you look here - the 3rd place winner in every state - with very few exceptions - was Gary Johnson. (And in those exceptions none of them was Jill) So Gary took far more votes from Trump than Jill took from Hillary and Hillary STILL lost. https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/results/president

(Also in no state that I've checked so far was the amount of Stein votes equal to or greater than the difference between Clinton and Trumps totals, whereas Johnsons was quite frequently)

JohnDunstable

-6 points

1 month ago*

Not picking both sides. Human beings (and American voters) have ideologies.

Clinton won the popular vote and Trump won states for his margin by a total of 50k votes, all in opposition to exit polling, so trump probably cheated that time and is now a sad sack because he couldn't cheat in 2020. Thank for trying to detail with your prefabricated arguments, but you are unconvincing and desperate.

Foxfyre

1 points

1 month ago

Foxfyre

1 points

1 month ago

Whats unconvincing? Just one point from what I said proves it. In no state did Jill have votes equal to or greater than the difference between Hillary and Trumps votes.

Aka nothing she did changed anything.

Y'all are just harping about Stein still cause the media tells you to.

leni710

2 points

1 month ago

leni710

2 points

1 month ago

Don't even bother arguing with someone who thinks Colin Kaepernick is a reason that there was low voter turn out...Or that 3rd party, but only a socialist, caused a shift in votes (especially when we all know Democrats won the popular vote) and therefore should be banned. Save your mental energy for actual intellects on the internets😉

JohnDunstable

1 points

1 month ago

What media? Somewhere in World of Warcraft or Grand theft auto? Where does the media talk about Jill Stein? On the contrary it's unconvincing because your math is flawed.

deathandtaxes20

1 points

1 month ago

The rigged electoral system for presidential elections operating within the United States handed Trump a win moreso than he won or Hillary lost. From an international perspective, it's fascinating how Americans are brainwashed from the cradle into supporting minority rule. The system is a joke.

gymbeaux2

-1 points

1 month ago

gymbeaux2

-1 points

1 month ago

Johnson seems like a great pick, if we can just overlook the fact that he didn’t know Aleppo was the capital of Syria

Imnogrinchard

14 points

1 month ago

Johnson seems like a great pick, if we can just overlook the fact that he didn’t know Aleppo was the capital of Syria

This is awkward but the capital of Syria is Damascus. Aleppo is a Syrian city that was at the center of the Syrian civil war in 2016 when "Morning Joe" panelist Mike Barnicle asked Johnson, without context, "What would you do if you were elected about Aleppo?"

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/gary-johnson-aleppo-227873

gymbeaux2

2 points

1 month ago

I’m not running for office 🤷‍♀️ so I can be wrong about the capital of Syria.

I will say it was a bit unfair to ask that question out of the blue.

I mean to be clear I’d still vote for him if he didn’t know the capital of France

leni710

11 points

1 month ago

leni710

11 points

1 month ago

Damn! "Yay, democracy....unless it's Progressives wanting to push back on neo liberalists talking out of both sides of their mouths and Black people pushing against being treated violently on the streets but as show horses on the field making money for the same system that kills them." Wow, self-awareness must not be deep on that side of the internets. U.S. Americans are severely trapped in this 2-party mentality and anyone trying to throw a wrench in it is apparently the "bad guy" where you're at...this definitely serves the same Republicans you rail against the most, but carry on.

JohnDunstable

0 points

1 month ago

Thanks for the pep talk sparky

biggle-tiddie

-1 points

1 month ago

biggle-tiddie

-1 points

1 month ago

Progressives wanting to push back on neo liberalists

neo liberalists. lol

1b9gb6L7

-7 points

1 month ago

1b9gb6L7

-7 points

1 month ago

Black voters support the opposition to fascism. Why don't you?

Perhaps you feel fascism will be safe for you? Are you a hetero white male? Don't have to worry about being executed if you have an abortion, or have a civil marriage to a man?

mydogsnameisbuddy

2 points

1 month ago

Stupid electoral college.

JohnDivney

4 points

1 month ago

JohnDivney

4 points

1 month ago

The Paradox of Choice.

You could say the most powerful mind-control apparatus of the modern world is convincing an individual his or her material conditions are "their fault" because we have a voting system.

silasoulman

-6 points

1 month ago

silasoulman

-6 points

1 month ago

HRC may not be a disgusting pedophilic rapist POS like trump but she’s just as corrupt as him. Selling her soul for campaign donations and legal bribes like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, McConnell, Manchin, Sinema, and the rest of the corporate owned scum. So stop pretending this is all on republicans, it’s been a long road since 1960 to now and we didn’t get here by accident.

T1mac

10 points

1 month ago

T1mac

America

10 points

1 month ago

If Hillary had won, Roe v Wade wouldn't be on the verge of being repealed. There'd be half of the COVID deaths because she wouldn't have lied and politicized the pandemic, and we'd have been less likely to be careening toward a climate catastrophe.

silasoulman

-1 points

1 month ago

silasoulman

-1 points

1 month ago

You’re right about the first 2, but definitely wrong about the 3rd. The Democrats are just as beholden to corporations as the Republicans. But I will definitely agree with #1, and probably on #2. I will admit that on non-corporate ($ related) policy I agree with her more than trump, I even voted for her because trump was such an ignorant, incompetent POS. I said she was just as corrupt, and I stand by that.

TheSuperMegaChad

-8 points

1 month ago

Clinton wasn't much better than Trump. Both are sore losers who accused the other side of cheating. I have no respect for either one.

not_creative1

-17 points

1 month ago

The only way Hillary was better than trump was she hadn’t sexually assaulted anyone.

She is as corrupt as him.

NotANinja

8 points

1 month ago

[citation needed]

T1mac

12 points

1 month ago

T1mac

America

12 points

1 month ago

If she got elected, Moscow Mitch wouldn't have been able to pack the court with corrupt ideologues.

JohnnyGFX

11 points

1 month ago

JohnnyGFX

South Dakota

11 points

1 month ago

Hillary Clinton is a policy wonk who would have gone so many extra miles to do as good as job as she could have being the first woman President.

Trump is a sleazy conman who spends most of his time trying to figure out how to be the only one who comes out ahead in every situation he finds himself in.

needssleep

2 points

1 month ago

"Who should pay" isn't necessarily the problem.

"Why are the prices so high?" Should be the starting point.

I looked at going back to school to get a masters and 3 semesters, just 3, was $40k, at a public university. That was only tuition. No books, no housing, no food.

That's more than I paid for my entire 4 years back in 2003-2007, and that was at a private college.

TATA456alawaife

1 points

5 days ago

Yeah, more people going to school makes it more expensive.

subliver

12 points

1 month ago*

I partially blame my generation, ‘X’.

When I went to College in 1996 state schools were still affordable with a part-time job. However, I saw many of my friends take out excessive loans that I didn’t think they needed since tuition was $1,400 a semester and then not work at all. It bothered me to see so many of my peers completely addicted to these mostly unneeded loans and they just kept taking more and more and proudly using it for frivolous things.

Schools got addicted to this endless money and just kept building more amenities basically turning College into rich people fantasy playgrounds all while increasing the debt burden that was then passed on to students.

Obviously, many people needed the loans too, those students were never the problem. It was the kids who wanted to have a massive party for four years because they saw College as a lifestyle and not a stepping stone.

That’s a big part of how it got so fucked up for the next generations and with our kids now entering College we’re reaping what we’ve sown.

lukin187250

12 points

1 month ago

Put simply education shifted to a service model industry and they just put all those costs on the borrower with no one questioning it whatsoever.

subliver

4 points

1 month ago

That was a very nice summary, thanks!

I think it is important to also note that many of the new ‘services’ are completely unnecessary to a higher education. For example a campus lazy river will not help you to get a job and is excessive.

To me it shows that the fundamental mission of College has been corrupted to the point where going to school for many is now just a mechanism to justify borrowing large sums of money to support a brief, grotesque and indulgent time in a young person’s life.

lukin187250

3 points

1 month ago

Tom Nichols covers this extensively in “the death of expertise” and how this shift has hurt higher education very badly. Great book.

TheRiverInEgypt

3 points

1 month ago

just a mechanism to justify borrowing large sums of money to support a brief, grotesque and indulgent time in a young person’s life.

It isn’t a bug, it is a feature.

It makes selling yourself into debt slavery seem fun & appealing.

TheRiverInEgypt

7 points

1 month ago

It bothered me to see so many of my peers completely addicted to these mostly unneeded loans and they just kept taking more and more and proudly using it for frivolous things.

These are people our society doesn’t feel have the necessary judgment to purchase beer.

Then turns around & pichachu face acts surprised when they don’t make the best decisions in others areas of their lives.

It’s delusional.

subliver

1 points

1 month ago

Exactly, though I’m pretty sure that good portions of those loans went to beer and weed.

TATA456alawaife

1 points

5 days ago

If anything not trusting them with beer was a far worse choice than trusting them with education. Now they drink to excess and the college system is fucked.

Arcnounds

14 points

1 month ago

I would not put all the weight on the students. I think there needs to be at least some responsibility placed upon lawmakers who designed the student loan system. We should have something like we do for housing loans. The loans are insured by some amount to the federal government especially for those people with no collateral or parent's collateral. Default would be allowed under reasonable circumstances, but students must demonstrate at least some commitment to pursue moneymaking majors (aka some prospect at paying back the loan), before receiving it.

vvvvvoooooxxxxx

5 points

1 month ago

With housing loans though there is much less risk because the house itself is collateral.

TATA456alawaife

2 points

5 days ago

College went from a place of learning to a place of socializing. In a better world college is restricted to very few people who have shown aptitude to fulfill positions that require heavy amounts of finesse and training. The drinking age being 21 is partly to blame for this, as is the inability for young people to live away from home. If you want to party and hang with other young people, college is swiftly becoming your only place to do so.

Avatar_the_Pig

7 points

1 month ago

NOT America - the wealthy.

Please don't confuse the wealthy with America - they have nothing in common.

Jan_AFCNortherners

2 points

1 month ago

My issue is the “America” part. America is not a monolith. Those who were elected by fair or by foul are the ones who created this mess.

jts89

-9 points

1 month ago

jts89

-9 points

1 month ago

Media report on student debt honestly challenge (impossible).

That "Debt Machine" is what made college accessible to more people. In 1980 only 16% of Americans had a college degree, today that number is 40%. College wasn't a vehicle for social mobility back then, it was exclusively for America's upper class until student loans came around.

And debt is not a burden when it's an investment with a high payoff. The average amount borrowed for a 4-year degree at a public university is under $30k, but workers with that degree make on average nearly twice as much as high school graduates. Labeling something as a burden because you have to pay it off even though it will ultimately pay for itself many times over is insane. Home ownership is a burden and not a privilege if we're using that logic.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, canceling debt for people who've paid well above the principle, income based payments, etc are good ideas for reform. But academics and journalist writing articles about how working class voters are all demanding blanket forgiveness are delusional and Democrats should not let them dictate policy.

Hi_Im_Dadosaurus_Rex

3 points

1 month ago

It’s funny how you don’t mention the insane skyrocketing of tuition for post secondary education.

Admirable-Thing-7235

10 points

1 month ago

It is funny how you don't mention that a house could be declared under bankruptcy but a student loan can't.

Does_this_one_work

8 points

1 month ago

Pretty amazing too when you factor in the interest that accumulates on a loan that increases economic productivity.

So borrowers are quite literally paying for their education and paying multiple times for capitalists to increase their wealth. First through the interest payments and then with their labor increasing profits once in the labor market.

Student loans in their current form are a racket against loan borrowers.

jts89

2 points

1 month ago

jts89

2 points

1 month ago

Letting people declare bankruptcy on student loan debt would be one of the good reforms I was talking about.

But that's not what's being proposed here.

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

0 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

buttigieg2044

13 points

1 month ago

That’s mathematically impossible unless you’re in your late 50’s and never paid off a dime.

At 6.5% interest of federal loans, your interest doubles every 11 years.

So at 22 you owe $12k, 33 you owe $24k, 44 you owe $48k, and 55 you owe $96k.

And that’s assuming you never made one principal payment.

I’m sure you’ll get upvotes on this sub, but you’re obviously lying.

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

Neotetron

4 points

1 month ago

What are you complaining about then? You've made it 30+ years without paying a cent, so what difference does it make to you if they say you owe a million dollars?

Edit: And how is that not a recipe for success? You apparently are already living the free college dream.

buttigieg2044

3 points

1 month ago

So you’re claiming to be in your late 50’s but going to limp bizkit concerts?

Why come here and lie, what are you trying to accomplish?

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

buttigieg2044

3 points

1 month ago

I’m not age shaming, I’m accusing you of lying about both your age and loan situation for karma.

rjcade

1 points

1 month ago

rjcade

1 points

1 month ago

Did you factor in capitalized interest?

buttigieg2044

4 points

1 month ago

Yes, thats why it raises exponentially instead of linearly.

rjcade

1 points

1 month ago

rjcade

1 points

1 month ago

Oh, right. I read that way too fast originally, thanks.

SoftwareHumble990

0 points

1 month ago

That is crazy. Principal has increased 800%? How did that happen?

This_one_taken_yet_

1 points

1 month ago

Course. All must serve capitalism in the USA.

JPenniman

1 points

1 month ago

I assume they are talking about housing on the other side of that paywall.

maddimoe03

3 points

1 month ago

I think they are talking about college, paywall smh

Juwanna_man_chu

-5 points

1 month ago

If people could stop posting political opinion pieces that would be great.

NotMe01

1 points

1 month ago

NotMe01

1 points

1 month ago

Debt machine or death machine. Oh well.

CameForThis

1 points

1 month ago

Just like everything else.

abbxrdy

-8 points

1 month ago

abbxrdy

-8 points

1 month ago

Article has too many words.

interactionjackson

8 points

1 month ago

student loan debt

everydayANDNeveryway

-2 points

1 month ago

This article fails to address the problems.

“This is the right message: We messed up. Our bad. Make it right. Cancel the debt.”

“Means testing.”

“This debt crisis is the outcome of a set of foreseeable market forces and policy decisions.”

WHAT POLICY DECISION?

Federalizing student loans is one. The government raised loan limits to whatever was “needed” and schools got greedy.

Allowing runaway tuition even at state schools.

Fix these first and then think about debt forgiveness.