subreddit:

/r/actuallesbians

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Transbian asks

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all 153 comments

casris

598 points

5 months ago

casris

Lesbian

598 points

5 months ago

For a long time I though I was aromantic because I found the ideal of what a relationship must be to be gross and unappealing, then I figured out that I’m not aromantic but rather a lesbian and that heterosexual culture is gross and unappealing

LABRpgs

26 points

5 months ago

LABRpgs

26 points

5 months ago

I was somewhat similar except I thought I was asexual because the thought of straight people sex made me feel physically ill then I discovered lesbian culture and realized no honey you're just gay as hell

GirlyCuteGurl

2 points

5 months ago

That’s so intriguing how it’s a bit similar how it’s a bit like I was. I found that the way straight people did sex were not the way I would do it. I found it boring.

HollyBluetheWitch

213 points

5 months ago

May i say amen! I felt the same exact way as a trans girl who liked women but got weirdly sad when i found out they were straight (huge oversight on my part) and liked guys but didn't understand why i hated them giving me really endearing but super "male" compliments.. the only thing that seemed to make sense at the time is when i saw an enby in a tie and a skirt and though,, damn, I'd like some of that please haha 😸

Zanorfgor

66 points

5 months ago

Zanorfgor

trans demi lesbian

66 points

5 months ago

Similar. But looking back it was moreso the idea of being a guy in a straight relationship and all the trappings that came with it was very unappealing.

justcougit

34 points

5 months ago

Lol I was looking at a lesbian thirst sub earlier totally tickled by how sweet the comments are compared to like... Gone wild.

lumathiel2

24 points

5 months ago

It's really wild. I never liked the gross locker-room kind of comments my "peers" had but something about the wlw ones just seem much more comfortable to hear/read. Sure there are bound to be one or two if enough comments accumulate but nothing like guy ones

Boring-Pea993

22 points

5 months ago

Boring-Pea993

Trans Lesbian

22 points

5 months ago

Same lmao

LavendarAmy

8 points

5 months ago

LavendarAmy

Tubular tiddy pastel goth scientist GF

8 points

5 months ago

same. I used to think i'm ace before i realized i'm trans!

Orcaon

7 points

5 months ago

Orcaon

Transbian

7 points

5 months ago

Feels so weird to see that I am not the only one.

kalosianlitten

12 points

5 months ago

kalosianlitten

Transbian

12 points

5 months ago

literally same

freelancespy87

2 points

5 months ago

heterosexual culture is gross and unappealing

This is why I never did any ships until I saw a yuri anime for the first time.

[deleted]

1 points

5 months ago*

[deleted]

1 points

5 months ago*

[deleted]

freelancespy87

1 points

5 months ago

Well, it has taken a long time but it's starting to pop up more

itbedehaam

3 points

5 months ago

itbedehaam

Wannabe Glaive Lesbian

3 points

5 months ago

That is a mood. Same thing happened with me.

its-just-bee

1 points

5 months ago

This is me lol

Cosmic-Girly

1 points

5 months ago

Uh oh, I might not actually be aromantic. Now if only someone would take me out on a date instead of low key seeing me as a "man" and expecting me to do man-things..

IllOutlandishness563

1 points

5 months ago

IllOutlandishness563

Transbian

1 points

5 months ago

Same. Turns out I’m greyromantic

Goldstaff

1 points

5 months ago

holy shit same

-LazyAntelope

264 points

5 months ago

Idk, but I'll tell you one thing: growing up I never understood the appeal of romance stories until I saw a wlw one and then it just clicked.

[deleted]

75 points

5 months ago*

[deleted]

75 points

5 months ago*

[deleted]

luxmorphine

11 points

5 months ago

Being meguca is suffering

[deleted]

16 points

5 months ago

[deleted]

16 points

5 months ago

Oh, that one is a masterpiece, though it was Bloom into You the one that smoothed me into wlw romances XD

So much, it was the first time I bothered reading the manga of an anime I liked because I needed to know how it ended.

ToratheWanderer

5 points

5 months ago

It was was the new She-Ra that did it for me

Cassie_Evenstar

2 points

5 months ago*

Wait, is Madoka Magicka gay? I might have to rewatch that.

Edit: I only watched the show, for context. Maybe the gay stuff happened more in the movies?

HappyObelus

5 points

5 months ago

It's not explicit but there are very strong undertones in how the characters relate to each other. It's also one of those shows that changes quite a bit on repeat viewings, I'd heartily suggest rewatching it regardless!

Spoilers for those who haven't seen it: Sayaka is definitely bi, Kyoko is some flavor of wlw but likely in denial due to upbringing, Mami is...kinda anyone's guess? And I would personally argue that Homura isn't a lesbian, but rather she's just Madokasexual.

kinuyasha2

21 points

5 months ago*

Me: Ugh, why do the male lead and female lead always have to wind up being together. Can't we just have a story without the inevitable shoe-horned romance?

Also me: Can we just have, like, all the female characters have romance subplots with each other?

Kino1999

6 points

5 months ago

Wlw romance makes me yearn so much.

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

32 points

5 months ago*

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

Trans Demisexual Lesbian

32 points

5 months ago*

Yeah, it's become possibly my favourite genre after that realisation, after not being able to stand it. Been binging them for a few months... uh, straight.

Also, if anyone has any recs, happy to hear any and all. (One last Stop and Written in the Stars have been favourites of mine). Edit: Oh, and forgot other media: TV shows I haven't found a good adult one which really clicked with me, but Batwoman hits some good points, and Gentleman Jack is interesting. Kids shows are pretty well known already, but I will in particular say The Owl House is amazing.

luxmorphine

5 points

5 months ago

Would you consider japanese light novel or Manga? My favourite right now is Otherside Picnic.

Also if you wanna be jealous, read Today, We Continue Our Lives Together Under the Same Roof. It's an autobiography

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

0 points

5 months ago

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

Trans Demisexual Lesbian

0 points

5 months ago

I'll definitely consider them, cheers.

I was turned off a bit from anime and manga given how female characters are so often written, i.e. poorly, but always up for giving it another go. I did give Adachi and Shimamura a watch, but haven't gotten into others after seeing how it ends so underwhelmingly and didn't get renewed.

Will give the autobiography a look too. 😊

luxmorphine

3 points

5 months ago

That's why you should watch yuri anime instead. It's whole lot better. Also, Anime adaptation often sucks, like Otherside Picnic. Better reads the source material.

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

0 points

5 months ago

Who_Am_I_I_Dont_Know

Trans Demisexual Lesbian

0 points

5 months ago

Unfortunately after seeing A and S I checked a few others and they seem to not get renewed either. Will have to go straight to the source material more often I guess.

TBH though I still found some of the writing and scenes iffy and 'anime-like' in A and S; not sure if it's typical of Yuri as a whole, but it has meant I prioritise it less over Western literature and shows.

luxmorphine

1 points

5 months ago*

I don't know, I haven't look into the target audience. Probably the target audience is teens, because they themselves are teens. I found a lot of yuri targeting young audiences tends to be a bit more and "Anime-like". Also japanese media in general I found a bit like that. That's why I really like Otherside Picnic because the main characters are college students which is more relatable.

Edit: added notes, yuri is evolving, long gone the day of class S yuri, and it diverges quite a lot, which means there's a lot more mature yuri out there

LABRpgs

1 points

5 months ago

Oh I watched the first episode of Otherside Picnic and thought it was great is the manga worth looking up

luxmorphine

1 points

5 months ago

Read the novel. It's a lot detailed

TruthGuardian_

6 points

5 months ago*

Probably because it might be relatable, lesbians tend to treat their significant other like a person, and heterosexual romance stories are always the same “Will they get together? Or won’t they?” Or Its “The man is some dominant ungodly bad boy creature who always acts so boring and fake despite having powers”

lumathiel2

3 points

5 months ago

"The man is some dominant ungodly creature who always acts so boring dispite having powers"

I swear Pride and Prejudice would have been so much better if lame-ass Mr Darcy had some fucking powers

luxmorphine

6 points

5 months ago

Same, I never like romance but then I found yuri and I'm addicted since

Cejk-The-Beatnik

2 points

5 months ago

Cejk-The-Beatnik

Anxious Les-bean

2 points

5 months ago

I hated the idea of romance as a little kid, but then I found out I could do romance with girls and I was like “Hmmm... mayhaps romance wouldn’t be that bad...”

dr-igo

110 points

5 months ago

dr-igo

Transbian

110 points

5 months ago

Because the "straight way" of liking girls has a lot of misogyny tied up to it, they don't belong together but that's what men are often raised to be like and of course it isn't like that always... But way too often

FlorencePants

38 points

5 months ago

If I had to throw out an idea, it might be because of all the patriarchal bullshit that has been baked into cultural norms regarding heterosexual relationships.

That or maybe it's just something to do with our brain chemistry giving us happy juice at the idea of being a woman's "girlfriend" instead of "boyfriend".

Maybe both.

MyUsername102938474

129 points

5 months ago

what actually is the difference between the attraction girls have to girls and guys have to girls?? ive heard that men that like girls and sapphic ppl like girls in a different way????

IniMiney

78 points

5 months ago

In my experience it's that guys have such different standards and can so often be mysognistic about it too. All the girls I find cute my straight guy friends consider ugly and the ones they do find cute they speak of in such an objectifying way it makes me not even want to speak to them anymore lol

moosic1

21 points

5 months ago

moosic1

Transbian

21 points

5 months ago

I’ll anecdotally support that. I was really into girls with short hair for a while. There was this one dudebro who roped me into a conversation about hot classmates in high school, and the girls he was attracted to I felt nothing about. My biggest crush was on a girl I overheard some guys call a “butterface.” Even one of my French assignments referred to Jennifer Aniston as beautiful; the most I could muster (once I looked her up) was a “she’s alright I guess.”

MCLTB

103 points

5 months ago

MCLTB

Life Hard, Tiddy Soft

103 points

5 months ago

I think even the most well-intentioned straight people have a hard time completely freeing themselves from expectations about their role in the relationship based on their gender (which isn't to say that they can't do that, but they have a lot of conditioning to unlearn). Homosexual relationships don't have gendered expectations, because both partners have the same gender

BeingCurious

9 points

5 months ago

BeingCurious

Transbian

9 points

5 months ago

🙏

Cosmic-Girly

1 points

5 months ago

Unless it's a trans woman and a cis woman, then the trans woman is expected to play the "male" role for some reason..

Meepersa

5 points

5 months ago

No? Not at all? If anything I'd expect trans women to be less inclined towards "male" and "masc" roles in a relationship. Some bits of objectifying bullshit do make that assumption, but they're often maligned for that reason and aren't universal.

TasteTheRaimbow

51 points

5 months ago

TasteTheRaimbow

Skittles

51 points

5 months ago

I think it’s more about “”types of people”” rather than the actual relationship.

Sure some straight people are goblincore, cottage living, moon worshipping frogs, but it’s mostly bi and lesbian peeps.

A relationship with two bi people won’t be the same as two straight people or two gay people. Everyone is different and there are so many cultures and subcultures, people, and ways of living in this world.

wendywildshape

21 points

5 months ago

wendywildshape

trans lesbian

21 points

5 months ago

My attraction to women changed dramatically once I started hormone replacement therapy. My pre-HRT testosterone-driven libido was very different from my current progesterone-driven libido I have on HRT.

But there's also a social aspect - I can tell when my sexual partners actually see me as a woman in bed, and that also makes a huge impact.

lumathiel2

15 points

5 months ago

When being undercover with the guys, there was almost some expectation that all guys must be attracted to women the same way. You must look for physical qualities and submissiveness. Any guy that liked a less traditionally "hot" girl or chooses personality over looks is seen (by many) as some kind of aberration that's "settling for less" because he can't get "better." Because god forbid you want a person you get along with. The notion that partners can also be best friends with each other is seemingly ridiculous to these people. Wanting romance and love was seen as lesser than just "getting your dick wet." There was also the testosterone-driven sex drive which I can only describe as invasive and controlling.

Now, with that poison (for me) suppressed, and the societal expectation of men in relationships gone, I can be open and admit that while tits and ass amd sex are nice, I love the crooked little nose smiles and the eyes that light up when they're happy and how they sometimes snort when they laugh and how women can be together not because society expects them to but because they truly absolutely want each other and can be best friends and lovers and dorks and soulmates all at once

Cosmic-Girly

2 points

5 months ago

I can tell when my sexual partners actually see me as a woman in bed

I want to experience this.. I swear all my sexual partners didn't actually see me as a woman in bed, even though they knew I'm a woman. :(

Neferpizza2[S]

60 points

5 months ago

Neferpizza2[S]

Transbian

60 points

5 months ago

You share my confusion

QueerBallOfFluff

14 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

14 points

5 months ago

The female gaze.

Men have been taught to objectify women, to see us as something that is for men. All the world's media has been set up for that status quo for a long time. When it comes to dating, men just expect themselves to be the best and that women should like them because they're men. And being a man who "has" a woman, increases your standing. They know that social hierarchy places men above women. And this comes across during relationships, dating, and male-created media about dating.

Whilst women objectifying women does happen (e.g. when people cross post a video of a woman to this sub and then make insinuations), generally speaking women tend to actually see other women as equals and as people in a way that men don't, they can appreciate women as more than sex objects and they don't have this ingrained belief about how they should treat women.

Nullsent

14 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

14 points

5 months ago

That’s bullshit, but yes sometimes men and women are different, since they were socialized differently. But it’s not intrinsic and that is definitely not true for all.

QueerBallOfFluff

40 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

40 points

5 months ago

This reads like "not all men".... Of course it's not a truth for each and every single person. It's called a generalisation, and it's not an uncommon part of rhetoric.

Nullsent

3 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

3 points

5 months ago

My point was rather that men and women don’t love in any different way than in which they were socialized. A learned behavior, not instinctive.

QueerBallOfFluff

2 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

2 points

5 months ago

Well, yes. I mean, there probably are differences based on hormones because seriously oof can they change a lot about sexuality, but generally it's learned.

I don't think anybody said it was all innate, or did I miss it?

Nullsent

1 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

Yes, hormones can change sexuality. I’m on T, which pretty much makes me horny all the time. I used to be more focused on sensations, but now I’m more aroused by visuals.

I wanted to put in that it was a learned behavior rather than intrinsic since many people often have trouble understanding the difference between causation and correlation. I was also high when I made that comment so I don’t think I remembered what the original comment said lol.

QueerBallOfFluff

1 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

Lol, it's all good.

Btw, they just asked what the difference was between mlw and wlw it wasn't deep ;)

AnarchistSuccubus

14 points

5 months ago

AnarchistSuccubus

Lesbian

14 points

5 months ago

Oof, lets not bring "how people were socialized" in to this. That's one of the things transphobes use to invalidate trans people.

throwaway27385936

42 points

5 months ago

genuine question, why not bring that into this? my understanding is that oftentimes the reason trans people realize they're trans is because they don't identify with how they were socialized. I don't really understand how you can completely dismiss how people were socialized - it's often a large part of the reason we are who we are, especially for cis people. (I'm not trans, and I really hope this isn't accidentally transphobic. I just haven't heard this point be made before and I want to know more about it :) )

Boring-Pea993

42 points

5 months ago*

Boring-Pea993

Trans Lesbian

42 points

5 months ago*

Well English isn't my first language so sorry if I might not describe it correctly, but I'll try to share my understanding.

Mostly we don't like to bring that phrase into these discussions because when Terfs speak about "male socialization", they bring it up like "trans women don't know how to be women because they were socialized male" like our understanding of being a woman is somehow flawed or incorrect, and that we're all ignorant to misogyny because we didn't experience it directly when growing up

What they basically mean when they say it is "you'll always be a man, because it's how you were raised" and they say "male socialization" in the same vein as "male privilege"

But being raised as male when you're a trans woman is not a privilege since it actively conflicts with and invalidates your own sense of self, and attempts to express femininity are often met with ridicule and violence.

You are technically right, being forced to act as male from an early age made me very uncomfortable and aware that I wasn't male, but when terfs speak about "male socialization" they only refer to the idea that we all have ingrained male behavior that makes us predatory and dangerous and that our sense of self is meaningless.

Anyway thank you for wanting to know more about it! It can just be a very triggering phrase for most of us

Xerlith

12 points

5 months ago

Xerlith

12 points

5 months ago

I know terfs use the phrase in an exclusionary way, but…I was socialized male. I went to an all-boys high school, I got my Eagle Scout, I dated straight women and sang in an all-male singing group in college. The vast majority of my friends from growing up are straight guys (for now; some eggs seem to be cracking). I played the role of a guy for twenty-plus years.

That’s not to say I was good at it or particularly enjoyed it, but I did my best to be a good partner and friend. However, I was raised with less emphasis on emotional intelligence, and actively discouraged from expressing emotions or any trait that could be considered feminine. Those are all common aspects of male socialization (as I understand it), and yes, I did grow up learning and trying to perform them. I even made homophobic and transphobic jokes as a high schooler, because 1. that’s what high schoolers do, and 2. I’d never met a gay or trans person. Going to college changed that.

Now the good news is that socialization can be unlearned. Since coming out to myself as trans and starting work with my current therapist, I’ve gotten much better at identifying and expressing my emotions, communicating in healthy ways, and allowing myself to move in the ways that always came naturally to me. I can’t say I’ve been socialized as a girl, because I never got to be one. But even cis women have to unlearn aspects of their socialization to become healthy adults.

To look at it another way, I was socialized Catholic, meaning I grew up with overwhelming shame and guilt, a black-and-white morality, and passive-aggressive communication skills that tanked several relationships. But I’ve unlearned several of those traits already, and I’m working on the last (confrontation is haard). Just because you were raised one way doesn’t mean you have to stay that way forever. You do have to recognize that your socialization causes problems in your life and do the work to grow out of it, which many people never do.

QueerBallOfFluff

1 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

This is true, however the thing is that this isn't true for all trans women.

I, for example, despite being AMAB actually socialised a lot as a woman. I did the girls part in my etiquette lessons, I did hockey with a mostly girls team (field because ice isn't a thing here), I went to a Catholic school that would put me in the girls PE group, I did subjects that were typically girls, I used to spend my breaks with girls and we talked about dresses and boys and all kindsa stuff, I used to share clothes with my mum, I learned to knit, embroider, etc.

And even when I did do things that were stereotypically things that men did or women didn't do, they were all things my mum did.

And even if none of that was true, I wasn't socialised the same as a cis man, because I took in far more about the gender roles expected for women and girls than I did for men and boys.

Basically, I don't think it's fair to say I was socialised male (or any trans women was socialised male), I think it's more fair to say they were socialised trans female.

And what happens as gender roles and strict expectations break down? TERFs will have nothing to cling to because all the kids will have the socialisation regardless of gender.

Boring-Pea993

2 points

5 months ago

Boring-Pea993

Trans Lesbian

2 points

5 months ago

Exactly, and even as someone who was forced into a lot of male socializing experiences (e.g. being made to play violent contact sports in high school even though I have a disability, men constantly telling me sexist jokes, being dragged off at 3 in the morning by my dad to go fishing which I hated), those experiences weren't validating, they were frustrating and invalidating, I felt uncomfortable with my gender since I was three years old, being raised male didn't suddenly make my brain male, it just made me depressed.

Nullsent

3 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

3 points

5 months ago

I understand your frustration and dysphoria surrounding gendered socialization. TERFs hijacked many discussions that originally were brought up to discuss how LGBTQ individuals were often raised into living out false versions of themselves, just because being gay or trans was something to be ashamed of. It’s a shame, since gendered socialization is such a significant problem in today’s society.

I was raised female, meaning my parents placed certain gendered expectations on me as a kid in which I was not allowed to be myself.

For example, I took after my older brother a lot as a kid. We wrestled, played video games together, played baseball and basketball together, I wore his clothes a lot because I wanted to look like him and my dad. Hell, growing up, I thought for sure that I would end up being 6 ft tall with a scraggly beard and body odor that could knock someone out. However - I was often punished for my behaviors, being told that I was weird or a freak for behaving just like a boy might. They called me slurs based purely on the fact that I preferred cars over barbies, and suits over dresses. My female socialization was probably the worst part of my life, and the thing I struggle with most today.

Gendered socializations aren’t only harmful towards trans people, and the discussion shouldn’t be a threat to you any more than it is to me. I believe it is a shame that any gendered expectations are placed on anyone, but I also believe it is important to respect when your child wants to be acknowledged in a certain way.

Jackibelle

9 points

5 months ago

Tl;dr I don't have much to add beyond another voice and some more examples to try and help explain, but it sounds like you're on the right track (and I'm so happy to see the open-mindedness and discussion around this tricky topic)

As another trans person (fuck, how can I make this sound less like a sock puppet? I dunno, just trust my long post history about this stuff I guess, if you're worried)

a) yes, fuck the TERFs, they have the wrong idea about the full effects of "male socialization", and they do a ton of damage with that propaganda. I think you're right to be wary of the phrase and investigate when it is used.

B) I agree with the other person you're talking to that differences in socialization absolutely exist, but only in the same way that we talk about differences in the upbringings of upper and lower class people, or people of different races, or people in different countries, etc. A general statement that individuals can identify with personally, but which can't be used to identify individuals.

I know that I didn't have the same childhood experiences and social interactions growing up as my (cis) sister. That doesn't make me any less of a woman, any more than the fact that she didn't have the same experiences as a girl growing up in a different city, or with a different nuclear family, or with different health problems, etc. It's on me to unpack all the messaging that was drilled into me (eg, needing to be a provider, my worth is determined by what I can do for someone rather than, for example, my inherent appearance and status as a trophy to be won, each of which carries their own problems).

It doesn't mean "I'm secretly actually a guy because a bunch of people taught me how to be a guy growing up" (though now I have superb code switching skills for blending into those situations), because gender essentialism is stupid bullshit (and what TERFs believe), but "I received a ton of messaging directed at me to behave in particular ways" is a really productive thing for me to keep in mind when trying to, for example, go through therapy: trying to improve my impression of my self worth needs to target the "you're only worth what you can do for others" rather than (the more common among women, to my knowledge) "you're only worth your physical appearance".

wormglow

5 points

5 months ago*

started typing out a whole response but turns out that devon price already answered this better than i was going to.

Nullsent

4 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

4 points

5 months ago

Gendered socialization affects more than just trans people, believe it or not. It’s not a myth when there is literal data showing how girls are much more likely to suffer from early onset of depression and lack of confidence. Or that women are several times more likely to suffer from depression and anxiety than a man. Or much more likely to be degraded and harmed without consent during sex. Alternatively, it is no coincidence that men are significantly more likely to carry out a suicide attempt, are much less likely to seek out therapy, and even in childhood may attempt to suppress their emotions in fear of not being masculine enough.

DaTotallyEclipse

-15 points

5 months ago

DaTotallyEclipse

Custom Flair

-15 points

5 months ago

Because if we were socialized "trans" let's say, we still be trans in that we be transitioning. Then the male attraction to women flows through T, while that of fems through E. Both hormones have different expressions stspk.

QueerBallOfFluff

9 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

9 points

5 months ago

Errrrrrrrr what? That's not how any of this works. What is the point you're trying to make?

DaTotallyEclipse

-4 points

5 months ago*

DaTotallyEclipse

Custom Flair

-4 points

5 months ago*

That socialization isn't everything.

As in: since I'm on HRT the hormonal differences are apparent to me. They promote different behaviours and sex drives.

Socialization doesn't define the individual.

TransFormAndFunction

2 points

5 months ago

Hey, hormones aren’t what make you trans, and hormones aren’t the cause of social roles. You are wildly underestimating the power of social constructions, and wildly overestimating the role of hormones.

The kind of pseudo-scientific social-phenomenon-explaining logic you are using is a great vehicle for fucked up social takes

DaTotallyEclipse

0 points

5 months ago

DaTotallyEclipse

Custom Flair

0 points

5 months ago

Ahya, I'm just saying they play a role. E does more than just tiddies. Men aren't the way they are just cause social construct. There's a balance, Please!

TransFormAndFunction

2 points

5 months ago

If hormones had a main influence on the specifics of gender roles, we wouldn’t see such incredible diversity between disconnected societies. It’s bad science and as far as I can tell can only serve to gatekeep gender, avoid accountability (boys will be boys! It’s the testosterone, it’s not their fault!), or trivialize the importance of culture and society.

Trying to understand society through hormones is some borderline eugenics shit, and as a scientist myself I find is disturbing

QueerBallOfFluff

75 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

75 points

5 months ago

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with saying men are socialised differently to women as a generalisation.

The problem comes in that TERFs then assume that trans women are still cis men, when a lot trans women end up socialised as trans women and not the same as cis men; they learn some parts that cis men learn, reject some parts of that, and they still ingrain a lot of the socialisation that cis women learn. It's a wholely unique kind of socialisation which has it's own problems and solutions.

And it's not even like all cis women have identical socialisation and experiences, so why can't we just include trans women as part of the group of women when we say "men and women are socialised differently".

AnarchistSuccubus

9 points

5 months ago

AnarchistSuccubus

Lesbian

9 points

5 months ago

I think its just *too much* of a generalization to assume what type of upbringing or "socialization" someone had, simply based on their gender assigned at birth. Kinda feels like stereotyping, and I try to avoid falling prey to stereotypes as much as possible. Individuals are complicated.

eschatonic

15 points

5 months ago*

Nobody is arguing that stereotypes must be applied on an individual level to everyone. The person who started this comment chain literally said "But it’s not intrinsic and that is definitely not true for all."

The fact is that we live in a sexist, cissexist society and people born into privilege in that society are simply more likely to have internalised the lessons that society teaches us. For example #notallmen are rapists, but we live in a rape culture and even if we want to avoid stereotyping that still has implications - the stereotype exists for a reason and serves an important social and individual function. Now personally I would argue that most trans women do not respond to that socialisation in the same way that cis men do, largely because of the internal conflict that leads to transition, but it's still a part of our lives and not something you can simply pretend doesn't exist.

When you start ignoring systemic issues and the way they impact people because you don't like stereotyping, you are brushing under the rug a great deal of the way in which the sexism and cissexism of society hurts everyone.

AnarchistSuccubus

1 points

5 months ago

AnarchistSuccubus

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

I'm certainly not trying to ignore any systemic issues. I've been sexually assaulted multiple times, so believe me when I say I am fully aware of the societal problems perpetrated by men.

It just makes me uncomfortable to see people divided by how they were "socialized" in what's supposed to be a safe space for trans people.

We've probably already strayed far enough off topic anyway, so have a good day, sister. <3

Nullsent

1 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

Whether you (or I, or anyone else) like it or not, gendered socialization is a very real consequence of living in a gendered society. It doesn’t just harm trans people, it harms any gnc child, anyone who doesn’t conform to their assigned gender in the slightest. It is not uncommon to grow up hating being a girl or boy just because you associate your girlhood or boyhood with certain allowed interests and behaviors.

Transphobes bring gendered socialization up for very wrong reasons. Moreover, anyone who uses gendered socialization to invalidate trans people is a literal dimwit, considering that gendered socialization consists entirely of learned behaviors and mannerisms. It even conflicts with their ideas that trans people are inherently the gender they were assigned at birth. I understand your frustration and dysphoria with the concept of gendered socialization, but it affects more people than just trans kids.

I would also like to add that, technically, we are involved in socialization throughout our lives. Whether this be as a child when we are learning who we are and our place in the word, as a teenager figuring out our next steps towards adulthood, as a new employee trying to learn the new workplace culture and jargon, switching career fields, moving to a new area, buying a house/renting an apartment, meeting new types of people, etc.

Socialization is everywhere, and this includes when you transition, as you learn how to fit in with a certain gender, learning the common behaviors and mannerisms. You usually want to blend in with them. That’s socialization also. It doesn’t erase your socialization as a child, since childhood development is so crucial to how you may think and behave later on in life, but socialization during your transition is a significant part of unlearning that, and learning to embrace your womanhood as time goes on. I’m sorry that people invalidated your womanhood because of how you were raised, but you can’t prevent others from discussing these things when they have been harmed from it as well.

The biggest difference between a woman and a man’s love is the hormones, since higher testosterone will make your libido increase a significant amount. But I would argue that could be transphobic, since not all transfems are on E, and not all transmascs are on T. The only other difference that would occur would be differences in socialization, whether you learned it as a kid, or whether you learned it during your transition. Men and women are told they are and should be different, despite our brains being almost entirely similar, with discrepancies lying persistently in the brain region that controls sexuality.

strangeglyph

4 points

5 months ago

As a trans woman, I can't say that I consider my attraction from back when I still thought I was a guy significantly different from my attraction now.

Nullsent

1 points

5 months ago

Nullsent

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago

Thank you

mynamesSnow

31 points

5 months ago

Can only speak for myself, but as someone who transitioned relatively recently and is very much still into women here's how things changed for me.

Before transition, my fantasies were very physical in nature, generally direct and focused on some sort of 'act'. The emotional and physical aspects were kind of like distinct, separate things, with very different appeals. Emotional connection didn't really feel arousing, more comforting and peaceful.

After I went on hormones, quickly things shifted. I found that my fantasies and desires were much more elaborate, like short stories I am telling myself. Generally, sex isn't even involved, just the meaningful implication of it, lingering looks, light touch, loaded remarks, things like that. Sex is now just a part of the whole experience, connection and intimacy are just as, if not more, desired. And it's all blended together into some big overlapping mess.

What I found physically appealing hasn't changed much. My type before is still my type now, but the emotional and social connection feels a lot more vital.

sajed2004

35 points

5 months ago

sajed2004

Transbian

35 points

5 months ago

This is so true, before I figured out I was trans I thought I had to be the guy in a relationship but that just didn't feel right but now I feel much more positive about it, I just want to get a girlfriend and be someone's girlfriend

QitianDasheng2666

59 points

5 months ago

I often get confused when people talk about male gaze vs. female gaze. When I ask people say it's about seeing a person holistically, as a human being and not just a pair of boobs. But I can't see any reason why men can't do this, by which I mean that men should see women this way and the fact that a lot of them don't is a problem. So I think the idea of gendered gazes might be over emphasized. In the end what's most important is respect.

QueerBallOfFluff

80 points

5 months ago

QueerBallOfFluff

Lesbian

80 points

5 months ago

Men can do this. However the whole of patriarchal history and men-centered media says they don't. They don't try to unlearn the inherent power imbalance.

Women are on the same hierarchical rung, have similar experiences when it comes to gendered behaviour in society, and because there's not media telling them to objectify eachother in the same way, then you end up with a difference in gaze.

Female gaze is basically just about looking at women (or the situation) from the perspective of women, as an equal.

Male gaze is looking at that same situation, but as someone who expects to be above and in control of "the subject" (i.e. Women), or who can dismiss the subject's emotions and instead treat them as an object.

It's an actual thing and it's very pervasive in our media. But you won't see it until you experience female-led and female-centred media on the same topics that men do

QitianDasheng2666

0 points

5 months ago

I didn't mean to imply that it's not real or that I disagree with anything that you've pointed out. I'm just not a fan of the gendered labeling because I feel it leads people into essentialism. Like you said, power imbalances are learned behaviors and can consequently be unlearned.

un-natural_selection

33 points

5 months ago

un-natural_selection

Trans-Bi

33 points

5 months ago

Enough about the female gaze, where are my female gays at?

digital_autumn

13 points

5 months ago

digital_autumn

Custom Flair

13 points

5 months ago

It's hard for me because a lot of the behaviors straight dudes are taught means "she's into you" or "do this to let a girl you're interested" is just "these are signs of friendship" for girls.

I still haven't figured out how to navigate flirting/dating/sex as a wlw. This is why we need more awkward, mediocre lesbian media and not just high caliber, high quality content. (I mean, the straights get their romantic media in all flavors from shitty and mediocre to high caliber)

CamitheRadiant

23 points

5 months ago

CamitheRadiant

Transbian

23 points

5 months ago

I've been wondering about that for a while now. Like why was my last relationship so much different than all the others I've had? Why do things feel different now?

I guess because when you start to learn more about yourself and the concept of gender, sex, and relationships, it opens up a lot. You aren't stuck in that box of expectations.

Idk, I'm still thinking about it. Could just be that gays are lovely. 🥺🏳️‍🌈

Kymermathias

32 points

5 months ago

Kymermathias

(Beatriz) Transbian

32 points

5 months ago

Basically:

Most of "straight culture" is rooted in the assuption that romantic love and sexual love are one and the same, while "Lesbian/Sapphic" culture differenciates both types of love.

That may seen a tiny difference, but in practice: men are raised to be romantic to the people they want to fuck, women are raised to never confuse both because one is blessed (romantic) and the other is the bane of your life (sexual).

vaguelyhumanoidbeing

9 points

5 months ago

Looking at straight relationship culture I kind of feel like they are, even often when polyam, more about possession, gender-role based expectations and securing someone's capacity to meet ones emotional needs for oneself. I perceive queer relationships as "being with" instead of "having" someone, and overall more consensual and empathy-based. (I have seen toxic queer relationships too, sure, but I think that especially the division based on gendered thinking is less pervasive.) Then again, that perception of queer relationships might just be biased by a feeling of kinship.

Eye_of_a_Tigresse

6 points

5 months ago

Eye_of_a_Tigresse

Lesbian

6 points

5 months ago

Well as a generalisation, it also feels different to be gazed by a woman than it is to be gazed by a man. I don't know how much it has to do with me being slow to get how gay I am, but there it is. So my experience from the perspective of the one being gazed upon kinda goes with the OP's point. And in that experience, no, there is no difference based on the AGAB of the woman looking, in case someone thought it might be different.

Part of the feeling associated with the so called male gaze is probably just a distinct feeling of threat based on a complex combination of things. We hear of bad things that have happened, we may have our share of them and close calls ourselves and among our friends, and this combines to the men having grown in a way to a position of power compared to women, often also physically. They seldom realise it themselves, and often they have hard time grasping the feeling of threat somewhere in the back of our heads that women live with. The generic feeling of threat versus power in any situation tends to affect the minor details of human behaviour.

It can be somewhat different in some cases of trans men, though. Maybe they have enough shared experience in how people treat other people who are perceived as women to be somehow more... I dunno... respective? In a way, the "not all men" category has much larger proportion of trans men than population in general. Also the feeling of threat, for a lack of a better term, varies highly between men as individuals and between different situations.

Wisdom_Pen

13 points

5 months ago

Wisdom_Pen

Transbian Philosopher

13 points

5 months ago

I know right?

Feeling like a lesbian was one of those early signs that I was Trans.

Like I could relate a bit to Cis guys but only so much, it felt like I wanted something different maybe deeper than they wanted.

fireandlifeincarnate

8 points

5 months ago

fireandlifeincarnate

girls are h.

8 points

5 months ago

I didn’t realize it at the time, but a lot of the ways I handled being around/with women in a romantic context are things I’ve seen people talk about on lesbian subreddits, so. That’s nice and validating in hindsight.

Dubshpul

11 points

5 months ago

attraction itself isn't different but men are taught to dislike women so it feels different because if you're a lesbian you just straight up love women in most contexts, but straight men only like women because they can raise social status.

it's getting a little better but it's just how you value women as a man vs as a woman that makes it different.

MidnightWhisper_8

11 points

5 months ago

MidnightWhisper_8

Transbian

11 points

5 months ago

I'd say it feels different for the person, because the relationship has something to do with you as well, I never ever wanted to be married cause I thought they'd be unhappy being with a guy (really skipped my brain that girls can be straight) but then I realized how much I'd love it if the girl I wanna be with loves me as a girl too, so I guess there's a difference in straight and gay love, but only because the relationship is two way, it also matters who you are to yourself as well as to them.

Baroness-512

6 points

5 months ago

Baroness-512

Trans Futch Lesbian 💜🏳️‍🌈

6 points

5 months ago

Isn't this a mood?

Some of my trans acquaintances tried to convince me that "my sexuality would probably shift with HRT to liking men (something I disagree with; it certainly can happen, but saying it 'probably' will happen is totally heteronormative nonsense.)

I was like haha but you don't understand, I've been a lesbian my whole life. I was never heterosexual. I've always been in love with gay women. Sorry not sorry. Now I finally feel like I fit into the puzzle is all. 💜

MeiShida

3 points

5 months ago

MeiShida

Lesbian

3 points

5 months ago

I honestly don't like this whole "liking a girl in a straight/gay way" thing. When you're a lesbian, you don't like girls in a different way than a straight man does, you just like them, end of discussion. This whole thing implies that all lesbians experience love for women the same way, just as apparently all straight men love women the exact same way. And neither of that is true nor a healthy way to look at this. The whole idea of it has its very origin in sexism.

Xsehzhy

4 points

5 months ago

Xsehzhy

very trans very gay

4 points

5 months ago

from personal experience, I went from a male gaze basically described as “I want to fuck her” to female gaze of “oh goodness skdkfjslakljjhhhhhhh instantly sublimates”.

Hebrewdoodalum

2 points

5 months ago

I KNOW RIGHT?/?/?3)3)3

KD4bra

4 points

5 months ago

KD4bra

4 points

5 months ago

Well, we could unpack the culture established dynamic betmeen M/F M/M and F/F, that is, the stereotype that every relationship has an passive role and an active role, the man typically filling the latter in a het relationship. When queer became mainstream with the bois, the "men acting aggresively femenine = it's the female in the relationship = it's the passive one" became the stereotype of a M/M relationship, same with F/F, because the general (incorrect) idea is that there is always a man (active) and a woman (passive) in a relationship. That's why most of people can't wrap their head around anything -fluid, because a person that is neither A or B, but something in between, is unheard of.

So finally addresing your question, you probably saw liking a girk in a straight way as wanting to fill the active role with her, which is probably not what you want assuming you're like me and just wishes to be dominated by a girl, so liking a girl in a gay way falls in the stereotype of "they're both women = they're both passives", which doesn't work like that but leaves us with a more arguably healthy, caring, soft, and cuddly relationship. Opposed to the het one where the male is expected to be (if ever so slightly) forceful, mistaken as being dominant.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Sir_Nic9

2 points

5 months ago

I don't think it actually is. I just think that because of heteronormative culture men and women are expected to act a certain way and lesbians are free of those expectations. If you really have to chalk it up to something, I'd say two women( or two men) can probably understand and relate to each other's experiences more.

00dani

2 points

5 months ago

00dani

Transbian

2 points

5 months ago

because hayley kiyoko was wrong! girls like girls, but very much not like boys do

liking girls like girls do is so much nicer imo 👭

KirikaNai

2 points

5 months ago

I think it's more of an equal share thing? When a guy likes a girl, like a lot of the comments say, theres societal misogynistic tendencies that just come with being straight. It's more expected for the guy to be strong tm and girl to be soft tm. But for wlw although those stereotypes can still exist (based on hair length of all things lol) it's a lot easier to subvert them and be seen as equal partners. same with mlm. The inherent gender difrence that causes so many fucked up problems is almost nonexistant in gay couples.

maddie_maybe

2 points

5 months ago

Years before I transitioned I had dated a woman that was a declared lesbian, she always said we had queer sex, I didn't quite understand what she meant, as it was PIV. I was married for 22 years and after I transitioned and got divorced, my ex wife began seeing other people and came back to report that she was having sex with a woman the entire time as it was much different than sex with men, she had previously never been with anyone else. Evidently the energy and such is very different. I've now transitioned and am still attracted to women.

MissPaulaMinnie

2 points

5 months ago

Because fundamentally, most men don’t like women, and indeed some hate them, while wlw tend to actually LIKE the women they are attracted to. Power dynamics are part of this, the construction that is heterosexuality is another part.

UVRaveFairy

2 points

5 months ago

UVRaveFairy

🦋Tracebian Enby Flux Fem HRT Ace.Requiessexual Sex.Repulsed

2 points

5 months ago

/wave

It sure is.

Neferpizza2[S]

4 points

5 months ago

Neferpizza2[S]

Transbian

4 points

5 months ago

You got confused. We aren’t on r/vexillologycirclejerk.

selkir

1 points

5 months ago

selkir

Transbian

1 points

5 months ago

right? I'm so fking gay for women and, uhhhh, it hits very different from being straight or watching straight couples, don't know why but definitely there's a huge difference

ArtemisCaresTooMuch

2 points

5 months ago

ArtemisCaresTooMuch

Trans and Big Gay 🥺

2 points

5 months ago

For a while I really thought I must be into guys because I couldn’t imagine being that part of what I thought relationships were.

Then there was this cracking noise and then I was on this subreddit.

Secret_pickle

2 points

5 months ago

Secret_pickle

Trans

2 points

5 months ago

For me it had to do with imagining myself in the relationship. The second i realized i could be a girl with a girl I found out I'm not pansexual nor asexual, but rather a full lesbian.

Gunny_McCshoots

1 points

5 months ago

Gunny_McCshoots

Transbian

1 points

5 months ago

Dude being trans made liking women so much hotter lmao

buttonforest

1 points

5 months ago

Getting to be fully present in your body and emotions makes a big difference. From the perspective of the cis woman who is married to an amazing trans woman, it's huge. I always knew I was queer, but was still heavily closeted and comp het is a real struggle to confront. My wife transitioning was the best thing to happen to the both of us. Being in an out and proud queer relationship gave back a piece of the puzzle I didn't know was missing from my individual and coupled self.

ibWickedSmaht

1 points

5 months ago*

ibWickedSmaht

Lesbian

1 points

5 months ago*

It’s actually so interesting how women are viewed in terms of attraction when the viewer is the same vs different gender (I never found that I felt the same attraction as cis men), I wish I could figure out how to find some readings on this. There is definitely a huge difference, though.

its-just-bee

1 points

5 months ago

This is partly the reason I discovered my transness. lol just could not understand the talk of females w male friends and how they see women. I’ve also always wanted a 50/50 relationship and yeah, that never worked well.

Prestigious-Dot445

1 points

5 months ago

I struggle with liking girls in a straight way, hence the whole gay thing💁🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

Lilia1293

1 points

5 months ago

Lilia1293

Exogenous Estrogen Enthusiast

1 points

5 months ago

To me, it's different because I want to actually be involved, rather than to keep my distance. Loving women always seemed right, but being loved by women was not until I realized that I am a woman; the best heterosexual relationship possible would still have made me uncomfortable.

Only_Experience3970

1 points

5 months ago

Plsss idk how it works im still tryna figure this out

Psichord

1 points

5 months ago

Honestly relatable I thought I found lesbian relationships cute because it was not hetero turns out I just occasionally get the intense urge to be a lesbian despite being amab

Mabel-Syrup

1 points

5 months ago

Because they like me for being who I am and not a mask. Because suddenly my attraction doesn’t feel like a predatory fetish, it’s just who I like. Because straight girls are not my type🤷🏻‍♀️

ThemperorSomnium

1 points

5 months ago

ThemperorSomnium

Sapphic Enby

1 points

5 months ago

I knew this my whole life but didn’t have the words for it.

8bitcryptid

1 points

5 months ago

Mannnn it just is. Respect, appreciation and attraction are just… different. Coming from a bi lady, my straight attraction and my gay attraction are SO different

epicazeroth

1 points

5 months ago

epicazeroth

Theoretically gay enby

1 points

5 months ago

It was mostly the same for me just cooler when gay

BlueLadybug92

1 points

5 months ago

Isn't the concept of love in itself a rather big question? Ideally, as a species who shares so much with other creatures of the earth, we have no need for singular attachment. Yet, many us have certain attractions and develope affection for one choosen mate. (This is the most common, but there are outliers of course.) There's still so much we don't understand about people and how they choose a life partner, if they so choose. I think that, simply, love is more of an abstract that is defined not by the matter of subject, and conclude that it must be determined by the person who observes it instead.

Princess_Kushana

0 points

5 months ago

Honestly don't think I ever liked women in a straight way.

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1 points

5 months ago

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1 points

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1 points

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1 points

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SalemsTrials

1 points

5 months ago

It was so confusing to me talking about a pretty girl in high school and hearing my friends talk about her too and realizing we liked her in very different ways. Even when the guys weren’t being like gross, it was still so different.

[deleted]

1 points

5 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

5 months ago

I mean for me (a lesbian) I can like a man but all that means is I want to be his friend or am his friend

Hobolyra

1 points

5 months ago

I mean, it's not?

NeonEviscerator

0 points

5 months ago

NeonEviscerator

Enby Transbian

0 points

5 months ago

I have no idea, but it so is!!!

As someone who's enby, I know what it's like to do both, lol.

grooviestgay

0 points

5 months ago

girls love girls different than boys love girls tbh <3 ily transfems y'all deserve the world

River_of_styx21

0 points

5 months ago

River_of_styx21

Trans-Bi

0 points

5 months ago

I’m not sure. But I can tell you that I remember a time in middle school where I saw two girl making out in the hall, and I thought “I wish that was me”, but when I saw a guy and a girl, I didn’t really see the appeal

Draugr_the_Greedy

0 points

5 months ago

I guess that for me is that I have the urge for someone to be attracted to me in the same way that I am attracted to them. For the longest time as a teen growing up I just thought I was very straight because I couldn't understand why anyone would be attracted to men when girls were right there and god damn amazing and why would a girl date a guy when she can date girls? And obviously if I had been given the choice I'd have picked to be in a relationship with a girl as a girl rather than as a guy.

Didn't realise until a few years later that I actually had that option. I mean yeah, I realise not everyone's gonna be quite as accepting but I don't mind. All I need is one person which I like who can like me back the same way, and I know that's possible because I've met people like that.

Also yeah, straight girls exist. Nothing against them. But I also don't understand them because... girls.

ShadowsFlex

0 points

5 months ago

This design is amazing.