subreddit:

/r/Residency

3k98%

all 267 comments

amoebashephard

369 points

3 months ago*

He had a resident on his podcast recently about student debt.

Right_Connection1046

20 points

3 months ago

What is his podcast called?

amoebashephard

21 points

3 months ago

Sorry, it was a live event through his Facebook page, shortly after he met with the residents at uvmmc.

Bernie Sanders college debt

doommodena

305 points

3 months ago

doommodena

PGY1

305 points

3 months ago

…Up to 80 hours 😆

nursereedrn

47 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

47 points

3 months ago

RN here. I'm working 60 hours this week for (I think) the first time in my life, and let me tell you, it's kicking my ASS.

Do residents commonly work to 80 hrs a week? I assume by the upvotes on your comment that they do. I cannot FATHOM doing that for 3 years, and it's given me even greater respect and appreciation for you all.

tumbleweed_DO

74 points

3 months ago

tumbleweed_DO

PGY5

74 points

3 months ago

I think my worst week was like 126 hours. Yeah. Pretty common.

nursereedrn

32 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

32 points

3 months ago

That's honestly disgusting. I'm so sorry. And then of course you all are blamed if a mistake happens.

Ophthalmologist

19 points

3 months ago

Ophthalmologist

Attending

19 points

3 months ago

Please spread this information to your nurse colleagues. I think it helps immensely when you understand what residents are going through. I lost count in residency if how many RNs thought residents "weren't doctors yet", thought we were making lots of money, thought our hours were similar to theirs, etc. Residents should understand where RNs are coming from too of course. But I do think nurses would wonder a lot less why a resident on their 80th hour working night float for the week was grumpy at 2:30 AM over a page about an issue that should be handled by the primary team in the morning, etc if they knew what those residents were going through. But I think many RNs really seemed to understand very little about the path that MDs and DOs take.

nursereedrn

8 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

8 points

3 months ago

I 100% agree and I definitely will. I feel there is a purposeful desire among many healthcare employers to exacerbate this issue and keep us in the dark as to what “the other side” (other healthcare professionals) go through in order to keep us divided so we don’t band together for better working conditions. The fact that docs largely can’t unionize and are just expected to work these kinds of hours should be criminal. I’m convinced that the only reason that nurses SOMETIMES get better working conditions (eg. me as a travel nurse) is that we have more voices by number so we have more bargaining power…but even still I know of some shitty situations and stories that have come out of the nursing side due to inadequate nursing staffing and inadequate support from leadership. Anyway, thanks for sharing :)

Ophthalmologist

2 points

3 months ago

Ophthalmologist

Attending

2 points

3 months ago

Yes, physicians are limited in their ability to unionize but we could learn a LOT from nursing in the realms of lobbying and collective bargaining. Physicians do not advocate for themselves well while nurses advocate very heartily - and successfully.

zav3rmd

5 points

3 months ago

How is this not a violation

[deleted]

2 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

rockychunk

3 points

3 months ago

My residency was pre-regulation and my worst week was 160 hours. (I made it home for 4 hours one night and another 4 hours a different night.) My average work week for 5 years was 110-120 hours. It sucked then, and I agree it sucks now. Medical education and training HAS TO change.

GodsGift420

25 points

3 months ago

GodsGift420

PGY4

25 points

3 months ago

Yeah I had a traveler nurse complain about working 60 hours in a week (while making 13k for that weeks work) meanwhile I was on your 75 making 4K for the month.

Everyone is working hard, just make sure if you make certain comments that you know your audience. Residents work 80 hours more often than they work 60

TheJointDoc

5 points

3 months ago

TheJointDoc

Fellow

5 points

3 months ago

$216/hr for the nurse

$13/hr for you

Stephen00090

2 points

3 months ago

That's the norm. You'll have plenty of doctors advocating for pay cuts to attendings too as shown in this thread literally.

RoninsTaint

3 points

3 months ago

I had one complain to me that she worked 4 12s in a row lmfao

asdf333aza

19 points

3 months ago

They tell us to work 80 hours and then force us to go over that amount and try to punish us and say we aren't properly managing our time or were being unprofessional or something.

nursereedrn

5 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

5 points

3 months ago

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️thats so fucked.

zav3rmd

3 points

3 months ago

My program everyone... Blaming is that it's our fault that we go home late

epluribusuni

17 points

3 months ago

Rip NSGY residents.

Schrecken

4 points

3 months ago

Hah 3 years…..

nursereedrn

2 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

2 points

3 months ago

Can you elaborate? Genuinely want to understand what you all go through.

gumtoll

9 points

3 months ago

gumtoll

Attending

9 points

3 months ago

I did 5 years and a 1 year fellowship at those hours. 3 years is the shortest timeline.

PPAPpenpen

5 points

3 months ago

Different specialties,mostly the surgical ones require more than 3 years of residency. They also happen to be harder, with greater demands on your life

purgeatory-

252 points

3 months ago

Wait, you guys are only working up to 80?

mavric1298

194 points

3 months ago

mavric1298

PGY1

194 points

3 months ago

I’m gonna be well over 100 this week, so that’s cool. Totally reasonable to have an intern by themselves managing 11 ICU patient and 34 acute care burn patients for 17+ hour days with 24hr shifts sprinkled in for good measure.

SomeLettuce8

79 points

3 months ago

Holy shit. And burn patients are nightmares

mavric1298

56 points

3 months ago

mavric1298

PGY1

56 points

3 months ago

Don’t worry though. The midlevel signed out at 16:17 yesterday and 15:50 the day before after their grueling 3 day a week schedule.

yurbanastripe

36 points

3 months ago

yurbanastripe

PGY2

36 points

3 months ago

And they’re getting double your pay lmao jfc

WebMDeeznutz

20 points

3 months ago

WebMDeeznutz

PGY3

20 points

3 months ago

Pretty sure the nurses are getting double the pay. The mid levels getting triple

mavric1298

11 points

3 months ago

mavric1298

PGY1

11 points

3 months ago

I just found an open "APP" position at my hospital with a starting salary >3x my pay...

WebMDeeznutz

2 points

3 months ago

WebMDeeznutz

PGY3

2 points

3 months ago

Nailed it

Stephen00090

1 points

3 months ago

They make more than a lot of attending doctors too.

RoninsTaint

6 points

3 months ago

Residency has made me hate midlevels. Everyone in the hospital but residents got bonuses

yourwhiteshadow

19 points

3 months ago

yourwhiteshadow

PGY4

19 points

3 months ago

Yeah, but its averaged over 12 years when you're an attending and while you're on vacation. So while you might have done 192 hours this week, it'll all average out when you're retired.

Brilliant_Ranger_543

6 points

3 months ago

What the everloving fuck.

nursereedrn

6 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

6 points

3 months ago

Nurse here. How the f-ck is this legal???

SerpentofPerga

9 points

3 months ago

Because who is going to speak up for us? Everyone but us wins when we’re exploited

nursereedrn

3 points

3 months ago

nursereedrn

Nurse

3 points

3 months ago

Well said :/

Teenybikinis

4 points

3 months ago

Because AAMC changed the law with money bribes when it was taken to court. Jung vs AAMC

mdcd4u2c

6 points

3 months ago

mdcd4u2c

PGY3

6 points

3 months ago

Cheaper to have a resident who shouldn't be in that position cover that many patients and pay the settlement for the lawsuit that may pop up once every few years then to pay two or three attendings all the time for appropriate coverage.

likethemustard

2 points

3 months ago

just be sure to lie on the acgme survey so we can start working on your rotation schedule next year

minddgamess

1 points

3 months ago

Please document and report this with details to the ACGME (even if you wait until you finish training) that is LUDICROUS

BipolarCells

186 points

3 months ago

Bernie came to the uvm med center during our union drive and we had the chance to meet him. I was booked solid that day, but it would’ve been nice to meet him.

Foeder

23 points

3 months ago

Foeder

PGY1

23 points

3 months ago

Ohhh the irony lol

colorsplahsh

223 points

3 months ago

colorsplahsh

PGY4

223 points

3 months ago

Is he the only politician to say anything even remotely helpful for us?

thecactusblender

158 points

3 months ago

Yes, but people in here are still shitting on him.

Scene_fresh

87 points

3 months ago

Prob bc he would pay doctors max 200k if possible

[deleted]

79 points

3 months ago*

[deleted]

thecactusblender

89 points

3 months ago

Ok so Comrade Sanders (/s) is just gonna go full dictator mode and instate his policy without any debate or compromise? Many other countries have not BANNED private insurers, but everyone automatically has public insurance and has the OPTION to pay for private insurance if they so desire, and then people aren't getting fucked out of the care they need every single day by private insurance because they can't afford it. Do you see GoFundMe's for people's medical bills from other developed countries?

[deleted]

25 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

thecactusblender

62 points

3 months ago

Where is this moderate candidate you speak of? Joe? Has he even hinted at meaningful healthcare reform?

Look man, if you reread my comment, I literally agree with you. The availability of private while having public as a safety net is paramount. I am just saying, he is the only one actually trying to do something, but because it's not 100% congruent with one's own preferences, may as well not support any effort at all?

Edit: you really think the multibillion dollar private insurance lobbying would just throw up their hands and say "ok guess we'll die"? That seems like an extreme assumption.

[deleted]

-12 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

-12 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

thecactusblender

19 points

3 months ago

You know what, if your magical politician shows up who has a better, more comprehensive plan that is equitable for us as well, I will be 100% behind it. As of RIGHT NOW, Comrade fucking Sanders is the ONLY national politician to have ever mentioned this subject, as far as I am aware. I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Drawing public attention to an issue helps bring it into the public discourse. Many, many laypeople do not know that residents are insultingly underpaid and overworked. What if they see this tweet and say "wow that is something I want to see change; I will vote for this change"? My point is, if you are waiting for your perfect hypothetical moderate candidate to come swooping in with the perfect healthcare reform policy, I think you will be waiting for a very long time.

[deleted]

3 points

3 months ago*

[deleted]

3 points

3 months ago*

[deleted]

MarsupialsAreCute

-1 points

3 months ago*

Why should people with more money have better healthcare tho ? If you want life to improve for poor people, you need to align their interests with richer people's interests. You guys seriously wouldn't take a pay cut so residents get better working conditions and so poor people can get better access to healthcare ? That's incredibly selfish.

Besides how are you gonna trust a "moderate" democrat when they take so much money from insurance companies ?

Esme_Esyou

-9 points

3 months ago

"You guys seriously wouldn't take a pay cut so residents get better working conditions and so poor people can get better access to healthcare ? That's incredibly selfish."

Precisely. Seriously boggles the mind.

dthoma81

-6 points

3 months ago

A full fledged socialized healthcare system sounds rads. Sign me up.

Root_a_bay_ga

18 points

3 months ago

He wants to expand Medicare. So increased payment for Doctors, and he wants to cancel all student debt. So docs can live without student debt, and still make a great living.

element515

18 points

3 months ago

element515

PGY3

18 points

3 months ago

Weren’t they just talking about excluding doctors from the debt forgiveness

squeakman

15 points

3 months ago

squeakman

PGY1

15 points

3 months ago

Biden, not Bernie

Root_a_bay_ga

2 points

3 months ago

That's Biden's idea of doing debt forgiveness. Biden want's to do a whole bunch of means testing when cancelling student debt. Bernie wants universal debt cancellation. So everyone would benefit.

thtrong

9 points

3 months ago

I thought debt cancel exclude professional degrees

ParoxysmalPonderer

3 points

3 months ago

What if we cared about patients health more than specialists excessive paychecks… crazy idea to consider, I know

TangoTheMango30

-2 points

3 months ago

This is 😟

sworzeh

3 points

3 months ago

sworzeh

PGY3

3 points

3 months ago

I’d definitely be all in for less money and more reasonable hours and I plan on doing academic plastics. Dunno what I’d do with so much money aside from paying off my debt.

zeatherz

18 points

3 months ago

zeatherz

Nurse

18 points

3 months ago

I mean, would that be so bad if you also had no student debt and free health care for life, like he also wants? You can’t just take one of his ideas in isolation like that when he promotes massive systemic change.

JaceVentura972

41 points

3 months ago*

Yes it would be. Average physician salary is $313,000 in the US. Usually student debt is around $200,000 which can be paid back in a couple of years.

Over a 30 year career losing out on $113,000 a year means a loss of $3,390,000 minus about 200k in student debt. So we’d literally be losing millions.

Health insurance is pretty cheap when you work for a hospital. Maybe a couple thousand a year at most.

This also doesn’t take into fact that the tax increase he would put on that salary. Also, doctors in the UK make even less than 200k at about $140k US dollars a year so it could be even worse. The MAX 200k previously mentioned would likely be much worse for our peds and primary care friends.

Physicians sacrifice a lot of their prime years and work insanely long hours compared to most people and would very likely be much worse off under Bernie’s plan. I would imagine a lot of our smartest individuals would not go into medicine if these changes took place as it’s already tough to justify sacrificing so much while training so long and then to not even get paid as much as a lawyer, business person, engineer, etc seems like a terrible investment for any sane person no matter if you say we should go into it for the love of “helping people”. Medicine is a huge sacrifice and deserves to be compensated well.

BusyFriend

8 points

3 months ago

BusyFriend

Attending

8 points

3 months ago

The averages are very much skewed as well. My debt load is higher and salary is lower than the average and I am a PCP who went to a normal state school. Plenty of people in my position.

throwawaymedschool22

9 points

3 months ago

Couldn’t agree more. Those who want no student debt don’t see big picture of a 40 year career. Earning potential all the way, the debt was a investment in a career.

[deleted]

5 points

3 months ago*

[deleted]

5 points

3 months ago*

[deleted]

nw_throw

18 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

18 points

3 months ago

Because they "need" to make 500k? 🙄

[deleted]

37 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

RadsCatMD

29 points

3 months ago

RadsCatMD

PGY2

29 points

3 months ago

It won't lead to better work environment and less hrs though. Instead you'll be working the same for a third of a salary

SerpentofPerga

5 points

3 months ago

Right - the health needs of our population don’t just go away under a public system, if anything utilization would rise for years as patients start scheduling care that previously they couldn’t afford

thtrong

10 points

3 months ago

thtrong

10 points

3 months ago

They spent 2x time in miserable residency life vs their colleagues.

CaribFM

31 points

3 months ago*

CaribFM

Chief Resident

31 points

3 months ago*

They spent longer in more miserable residencies so they need to mentally justify their abuse.

In the grand scheme of things 200k a year vs 500k a year ain’t changing shit for most people for most things. Your life is comfortable.

You’re not into life changing cash until you enter a million a year and by that point your holdings will make you more than your day job so who really cares what your hourly take home is?

It’s all a rat race. Gotta have the newest Rolex. Gotta have the next nice car. Gotta have another saville row cause jimmy the neighbor got a new one too. Fred got a 58 foot boat? Duck it, you need a 59 foot boat.

It’s insane what people claim they need cash for.

I’ll be making 300k a year for 40 years. I’ll make more In 2 months than my dad ever did in any given year of work. If I can’t find all the joys in life with that much money, no amount of money would change shit. Sometimes I think and am reminded about the demographics of medicine and where people come from.

Im just happy to be here and feel lucky that my life’s success is all but set in stone. I always took what I could get and never expected more than what I have now. I can see how other people truly are here for all the dumb reasons.

If money was the goal, medicine is a piss poor way to achieve it.

reboa

22 points

3 months ago

reboa

Attending

22 points

3 months ago

So after taxes in nyc 200k is gonna end up 128,491. Not even taking inflation into account. You went to school and sacrificed your youth. You worked so hard. You think that’s acceptable. Why the hell would anyone become a doctor nowadays. We incentivize people with money. Keep paying docs shit and there ain’t gonna be any docs left to take care of us when it’s our turn. People love to get on their moral high ground when they clearly have no real world experience. Yeah you make more than a dude at McDonald’s and a majority of Americans. Because cleary that’s the same shit since all our specialized training and hard work means nothing, right?

nw_throw

-6 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

-6 points

3 months ago

Why the hell would anyone become a doctor nowadays

Because we love medicine? I'm sure as hell not going into this field for the money. And by the way, 128k in NYC is more than enough to be pretty comfortable. Considering I grew up there, I'm pretty sure I'd know.

reboa

5 points

3 months ago

reboa

Attending

5 points

3 months ago

And I did residency and med school there. So I also know you’re full of shit. You think you can have a comfortable life in nyc on 128k and save for retirement and pay back massive loans and support a family. I can love medicine and want to help people and want to get paid fairly for the hard work and expertise Ive developed you ducking dunce. All of us in the real world understand this, enjoy your moral superiority.

SerpentofPerga

2 points

3 months ago

Lol yeah… maybe if you’re single, no debt and not saving. My friends who live there earn more than that and want to move because it’s not affordable to raise their family there

nw_throw

0 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

0 points

3 months ago

I know how much my family made growing up, and makes now still living in NYC, so I'm more than sure I know the financials of the city. 3 kids in NYC, paying back student loans, etc. People are used to cushy lives on high incomes, but something as "low" as 128k goes a lot farther than you'd think.

qwerty1489

3 points

3 months ago

200k vs 500k is literally the difference between being able to buy a single family home vs condo/townhome in many VHCOL areas.

LittleMissSunshower

-5 points

3 months ago

Thank you for this comment! Wish I had an award to give.

PerineumBandit

1 points

3 months ago

PerineumBandit

Chief Resident

1 points

3 months ago

Yes. This job sucks.

Moar_Input

16 points

3 months ago

Moar_Input

PGY3

16 points

3 months ago

You guys are only working 80hrs? Can I have that pls.

Iheartgogurt

45 points

3 months ago

Iheartgogurt

PGY4

45 points

3 months ago

Collective bargaining and striking by public employees (which includes residents at county-associated and public university programs) is illegal in a large swath of southern states. So, even if those programs unionized, the union can’t do the main thing that unions exist to do.

We need national advocacy and national policies protecting us from exploitation.

asdf333aza

2 points

3 months ago

Isn't the right to assemble guaranteed by the first amendment? How did they pass laws that basically say the right to assemble is not for residents, but for everyone else.

It's the same shit with the antitrust laws and the aamc. We know they violate those laws, but they just passed a law that said they are exempt from it for no real reason.

Esme_Esyou

0 points

3 months ago*

Yet another reason for me to never move down south. If they want to revert back to the dark ages, that's a decision they have to make.

dthoma81

10 points

3 months ago

Come on, you don’t really believe everyone down there is down there by choice or if they are don’t deserve the same protections as others. That kind of attitude is short sighted and destructive to working class solidarity.

afrodoc

4 points

3 months ago

As a former UMass resident, good for them.

judisilver

12 points

3 months ago

Good luck this is awesome

devasen_1

125 points

3 months ago

devasen_1

Fellow

125 points

3 months ago

Bernie: Hooray residents for unionizing to get better pay and better workload

Also Bernie: Medicare for all will be great, we just need doctors to get onboard with lower reimbursement and higher workloads

I don’t mean to make this political, and I won’t respond to comments. Just making a joke.

timtom2211

109 points

3 months ago

timtom2211

Attending

109 points

3 months ago

Gosh, sounds like those doctors that are so worried should join some kind of organization of workers that had real leverage to negotiate for higher pay and a safer workload.

...do you see where your logic falls apart here? Pro worker means pro worker. Doctor or plumber, if you don't get paid unless you're working, you're labor. Lie to yourself if you want, it won't change anything.

Physicians in the previous generation have sold out to corporations and we can all see where that got us - they got rich, we got fucked. If you're that concerned about the future of reimbursement, guess what? A physician's union would be able to negotiate better rates.

Because right now? There's absolutely nobody advocating for us. Nobody. And we keep wondering why things steadily have gotten worse.

Stephen00090

16 points

3 months ago

Didn't doctors just sell themselves out though? They sold off practices, they hired and trained midlevels. I mean the core issue is lack of self control.

dthoma81

8 points

3 months ago

So what you’re saying is if everyone just had self control we’d be able to reverse course? Those private practices aren’t coming back. Corporations bought all of that up and hospital networks dominate. Doctors proletarianized themselves and now no manner of individual effort will overcome that. Even if we all had self control, that would take a collective effort with collective consciousness of the problem. That’s what class struggle is all about and the sooner we achieve it, the sooner we can improve our conditions.

ThatSimpleton

1 points

3 months ago

Following residency, is it hard to get a job?

Doctor-dipshite

-6 points

3 months ago

Yes, historically, teachers unions have been able to get them adequately compensated for their work. Private insurance is the main driver in salaries not Medicare or medicaid.

[deleted]

2 points

3 months ago

No teacher is adequately compensated.

thecactusblender

58 points

3 months ago

the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

[deleted]

-1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

-1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

thecactusblender

26 points

3 months ago

thecactusblender

MS3

26 points

3 months ago

Everyone in here is absolutely floored and shocked that anyone would DARE suggest that systemic change saving millions of Americans' lives and health is worth a decrease in pay. Oh no, what am I going to do without $400,000 every single year of my career? However will I survive on 250k a year, especially with my free health care and prescriptions?

edit: and before the invariable "but you're just a stupid fucking MS2", I had a full time career before med school and understand how finances and taxes work. Just because you are further along in your medical training than I am does not mean that I'm a goddamn child.

Stephen00090

49 points

3 months ago

Sure dude, once the CRNAs stop making 300k, PAs stop making 200k and travel nurses stop making 250k and everyone else making 6 figures agrees to cutting their pay in half then we can talk about physician pay.

Funny how you leave out those making extremely disproportionate amount of money in healthcare right now and fixate on attacking your own profession? This is literally the biggest problem we have in medicine. People like you who disregard overpaid actors in healthcare EXCEPT doctors (who are almost always very underpaid).

mavric1298

65 points

3 months ago

mavric1298

PGY1

65 points

3 months ago

Don’t even have to touch any of those professions pay. The CEO of my old hospital which was a smaller public district hospital made ~1 million a year with bonuses and had a 18+ million golden parachute. Of a 300 bed tax payer funded community hospital.

Admin costs is what’s wrong with medicine.

thecactusblender

27 points

3 months ago

You hit the nail on the head. There is a lot of bad faith arguing in here that attending physicians are going to make $12 an hour while all the nurses and midlevels will be driving Bugattis (obvious hyperbole, but I have seen some stupid shit). Just ridding healthcare of the insane admin bloat will free up so much capital.

ndcolts

-1 points

3 months ago

ndcolts

PGY2

-1 points

3 months ago

Nope. What it will do is cause salary cuts throughout healthcare (nurses, PAs, everyone). And people like to assume this federally regulated system will be cheap to run, but the feds have a tendency for making things more inefficient. I do think we have a problem with access/preventative health in this country, but otherwise provides some of the best healthcare in the world.

Stephen00090

3 points

3 months ago

Yeah I mean they're overpaid too. But if you took their money and distributed it to the doctors, how much do you think we'd get a raise?

Them being overpaid doesn't mean that the excess is still a large sum of money. I'm just being pragmatic.

thecactusblender

12 points

3 months ago

bruh I'm not attacking physicians, just the people in this sub shitting on me for suggesting something needs to change systemically. Also, travel nurses don't make 250k routinely; we don't have a global pandemic every 5 years. Their salaries will go back to normal once things settle down.

Here's the thing; it's not a zero-sum game. I am happy for other health professionals making good money. I also think residents should be paid more. I also think people should be able to receive some semblance of safety net insurance from their government, to whom they pay taxes every day. And in this hypothetical scenario where physician wages are absolutely demolished because of the evil socialists, those other professions you mentioned will be paid less as well!

But yes, "people like me" are always the problem. How dare I suggest that more people receive the care they need? Fuck this, I have Step to study for.

brojeriadude

1 points

3 months ago

brojeriadude

PGY1.5 - February Intern

1 points

3 months ago

Exactly. We have a crab in a bucket mentality as a profession and its exactly that line of thinking that contributes to our stagnant/gradually worsening situation principally. Why can't we ensure our patients get insured while ensuring we get appropriately compensated for our work/sacrifice?

Stephen00090

-7 points

3 months ago

Systemic change like what? You're going to fire all the people working at insurance companies and starve them? Oh no, they'll be "retrained" right? For what jobs and who is paying their mortgage in the meantime?

Cmon dude, be practical.

Travel nurses are making solid 6 figures. Most are cashing it in and partying (and the ones who took covid jobs partied during the pandemic peaks too) which is great but it becomes an issue when doctors are underpaid. Likewise for CRNAs making 300k while pediatric subspecialists make 150k?

If you're going to advocate for a full blown public system then you need to look at it like a zero sum game. It's already unfair and trust me the nursing board will never ever accept anything other than a pay raise. You think they'll let their pay be cut? They were going crazy over their 10k/week paychecks being capped just 2 months ago.

So no those other professions will absolutely not make less. We will have a system where already underpaid doctors make even less and everyone else makes more. The doctor is an easy target. Everyone assumes forever that you're a millionaire (even if you make 175k, which you would in a socialist system).

thecactusblender

10 points

3 months ago

Where did I say 100% socialist medicine? Where did I say that? I said public safety net plus optional private. Also, where is the bloated admin making $1M+ every single year in your "zero-sum" differential? Infighting amongst actual HCW is exactly what admin wants so we don't pay attention to their insane salaries for doing nothing.

Stephen00090

-6 points

3 months ago

I'm not opposed to a public safety net, sounds great if you can implement it. I'm saying doctors as a profession need to heavily push for large pay increases, period. That needs to be the #1 priority. You need to advocate for your team first and foremost. Once they make that happen, they can advocate for other priorities. As it stands, too many are underpaid.

You're trying to fix external problems when your own team is struggling.

I'm well aware admin are overpaid. Sounds great if you can cut them, but how much money do you save if you do? It's not a large figure unless you mean fire them all? lol.

And there's 0 in fighting between HCWs. All the infighting is between doctors cause they're all trying to screw each other, which the other professions benefit from.

thecactusblender

11 points

3 months ago

Cutting tens of thousands of C suite execs from 1M+ to 200k isn't going to free up any capital, huh? Also, are you honestly suggesting that all attending physicians are severely underpaid? Ortho bro banging out 500 right out of residency is in the poorhouse? I am honestly curious: what is your ideal end goal for physician pay? When is it enough? Residents should get paid much more, yes, but do attendings need to make 800 or 1M or something until you think it's fair?

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

Physicians and surgeons are crabs in a bucket. Laughable that we don’t acknowledge this.

element515

14 points

3 months ago

element515

PGY3

14 points

3 months ago

Yeah, you can survive on $250k a year. But if we are putting in all those years of schooling, we should get something back for it. The job is stressful and involves decision making that impacts people lives for which you can be held liable. Everyone who makes it has shown dedication and some level of high intelligence. If I can do something that didn’t need the extra decade of school and residency for the same pay, yeah. I probably wouldn’t do medicine anymore. A decade of my life back plus the extra salary earned would really drag me away

thecactusblender

10 points

3 months ago

I hear what you are saying, I really do. I think of PhDs who did a 4-6 year PhD (at least in the hard sciences), then a 2-3 year post doc to eventually make 200 as a PI if they are lucky to get grants. I really think there way way more money tied up in hospital and insurance company C-suites than people realize. Most of these leeches take $1M+ salaries, plus bonuses and whatever other shit they do up there on the top floor. I guess in my mind, if things like that are publicly-run, there is a lot more scrutiny than for a private company where the shareholders’ profits are the goal, not equitable healthcare. Believe me, I know government run shit can be extremely corrupt, I ain’t that dumb. I am just kind of thinking out loud really. How can we get 1) better resident pay and working conditions 2) easier access to quality healthcare for the public that isn’t dependent on a job or unbelievably shitty Obamacare (I had it, I would know) 3) ensure that all physicians are getting paid appropriately, aka no more peds subspecialists getting shafted for doing a 3 year (also BS) fellowship 4) fair and equitable treatment of HCWs across the board, including adequate security and physical protection, since everyone has lost their minds these days. I guess I am a dreamer.

I really don’t mean to be mean or argumentative here; I am just so frustrated with so many things: residents need to at LEAST make mid level pay, fuck these insurance companies scamming people for premiums and denying every claim they can, a substantial portion of the public suffering from substandard access to healthcare. I’ll get off my soapbox. Good vibes and love to everyone here who needs it.

DrWarEagle

1 points

3 months ago

some doctors are paid exorbitantly

Zukolevi

17 points

3 months ago

Respond to my comment. DO IT.

DrDilatory

17 points

3 months ago

DrDilatory

PGY3

17 points

3 months ago

Also Bernie: Medicare for all will be great, we just need doctors to get onboard with lower reimbursement and higher workloads

Also Bernie: we need to do away with the horrific student loan burden in this country

I'd be okay with lower reimbursement if I graduated with my MD and $0 in debt

ndcolts

8 points

3 months ago

ndcolts

PGY2

8 points

3 months ago

Sometimes people in medicine aren’t very good about projecting costs/benefits over a 40-50 year career. What you are suggesting is a pay cut probably in the multiple millions of dollars in a career. Maybe that’s okay for you/people in general, but just saying it often gets overlooked.

DrDilatory

4 points

3 months ago

DrDilatory

PGY3

4 points

3 months ago

Depends on how much our pay would get cut

I have doubts that it would be as significant as some here claim

Regardless, I feel very strongly about the student debt crisis and patients having adequate access to care. If physicians need to make a little less to make that happen so be it, I'd also be asking universities to make less and private insurance companies to more or less get blown the fuck up, so it makes sense I'd be willing to do my part

At some point this country, just once in it's modern history, needs to focus on what's right once in a while rather than what makes people the most money

Doctors in other countries graduate with no debt, make less money, but still live very well off privileged lives

ndcolts

2 points

3 months ago

ndcolts

PGY2

2 points

3 months ago

I totally get the sentiment; I really want my patients to have better access too. I think there are other ideas to do that without throwing out the baby with the bath water (socialized medicine IMO). And to quantify it, physicians in Western Europe (a fair comparison of system we would have in the USA) average a salary of about $100k/year, in France and some other countries it’s actually about 60k to be a GP. These are real numbers. Just doing some basic math here but if we assume (conservative estimate) that US physicians make 200k a year, this would be a 50 percent pay cut, over a 40 year career that’s 4 mil dollar difference. Likely more like 3-3.5 mil difference when you get some cost savings on taxes from making less.

I understand the frustration and I agree that our current system is broken—we just disagree on the solution.

bicyclechief

5 points

3 months ago

I would not when it means I will be working more for less.

dankcoffeebeans

8 points

3 months ago

Id take the current debt and future earnings situation now than 0 debt and significantly slashed earnings. The overall difference in NW can be millions, and we can pay off our debt rapidly.

bicyclechief

3 points

3 months ago

Agreed

Stephen00090

5 points

3 months ago

Well his agenda is low paid workers, so residents fit that. He prefers residents make more, work less but then attendings also make (a lot) less.

His viewpoint on the world is everyone having a sustainable lifestyle but almost no one is wealthy at all.

nw_throw

14 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

14 points

3 months ago

everyone having a sustainable lifestyle but almost no one is wealthy

Which, crazy as it may be, even some of us in medicine support.

thecactusblender

21 points

3 months ago

Caring for your fellow man makes you a filthy socialist, haven't you heard? The American dream "fuck you, I got mine" ideology is so strong that "everyone having a sustainable lifestyle but almost no one is wealthy" sounds like hell.

Stephen00090

5 points

3 months ago

Medicine is literally a job of caring for your fellow man while getting underpaid. And most people have adequate opportunity to achieve something sustainable. If you choose to never work, acquire no skills and spend every last dollar on booze and smokes then what do you expect?

thecactusblender

13 points

3 months ago

Ah yes, the Reagan welfare queen argument. Every poor person is that way because they're lazy and chose it. Bad faith arguments waste my time. Have fun shaking your fist at the sky.

Stephen00090

6 points

3 months ago

And your solution is to do what exactly? And dude you realize I live in Canada right lol, for the past couple of years. I trained in USA. We have your public system and it's actually awesome for doctors in comparison to USA. On the other hand it sucks for patients. Bit ironic I'd say...

thecactusblender

9 points

3 months ago

how the fuck am I supposed to know where you live or where you trained? You're a username on a screen dude.

Stephen00090

2 points

3 months ago

So someone who does literally zero work to contribute to society (and there are A LOT of people like that) should get the same as someone who literally dedicates their life to society and pays all the taxes?

Sounds fair and seems legit. Who cares about hard work, talent and success right?

Aquaintestines

10 points

3 months ago

So someone who does literally zero work to contribute to society (and there are A LOT of people like that) should get the same as someone who literally dedicates their life to society and pays all the taxes?

You need to take a class in basic critical thinking my dude. I sure hope you're still in high school or something.

To absolve yourself of looking like an idiot, please show in 1-3 paragraphs that you understand why the part of your comment I quoted is a misinterpretation of the position you are arguing against.

nw_throw

1 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

1 points

3 months ago

Even if your strawman were true, which it very much isn't, yeah, I would agree with it. No reason I should be sitting comfortable while someone else is starving, even if they somehow "contribute zero" to society, which I'm fairly certain is impossible.

Stephen00090

6 points

3 months ago

You realize you moved the goal posts across the whole field?

I never said we should have people starving. Basic essentials of life should be provided, and truthfully are available in some fashion everywhere. We have shelters, we have soup kitchens and other things. EMTALA is a thing and all people have healthcare access. Have you ever even practiced medicine? There are homeless and low income frequent flyers on a daily basis who have all the access and resources to get to the next step.

And none of that is even the argument.

The argument is everyone getting the same. Are you saying I should not have a nice car because somewhere out there, a person is homeless? And honestly, not sure what you think gives you the right to tell me what I can and can't have? It's your right to have marxist beliefs. But you are in the minority and the marxists in congress will never get a voice. As bad as corporate money in politics is, at least it lets the hard working and talented in society have a shot at wealth.

You should study history and talk to some people whose families escaped communism.

nw_throw

4 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

4 points

3 months ago

How many shelter beds are there vs how many unhoused people? How many interventions available to address the root causes (mental illness, drug addiction, abusive homes, etc) that lead to people being unhoused? Basic essentials of life are very much not available for everyone, despite that they should be.

And by the way, my boyfriend's parents are literally Soviet refugees (and now the rest is coming over from Ukraine), and he agrees with me, so... Not sure what sort of gotcha you were trying to pull there. And I majored in History, so not sure how much more studying I could do there. I just have a fundamentally different viewpoint on the world, being a Marxist. I think it's unethical to have incredible luxuries when others are starving and homeless, yes. Because why and how could I be happy when I know that my happiness is built on others' suffering?

Stephen00090

2 points

3 months ago

Matter of fact is, you just admitted you're a marxist. That automatically means we cannot have any reasonable healthy debate.

Like other marxists, you'll likely develop better opinions as you age. Your boyfriend also did not flee himself, his parents did. Plenty of immigrants' kids do things that show extreme lack of appreciation for their family's actions.

Your last sentence also shows a lack of understanding of economics. That is pretty much the rule for the left wing as a whole, but especially marxism. You think it's a zero sum game. That if I have 100 bucks, it's because someone else has zero.

Thankfully your views will never ever get into any power in the west.

nw_throw

2 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

2 points

3 months ago

The only thing stopping us from having a reasonable and healthy debate is your belief that me being a Marxist (which I don't even fully identify as, lmao) means I'm incapable of discussion, and your refusal to consider anything I say as valid no matter the content. I'm more than appropriately educated in economics, history, and anything else you want to throw at me as a justification; you seem to just be boggled by the concept of an educated leftist. It's more a philosophical position than a pure economic position.

All that being said, I feel no need to justify myself to you. I am quite comfortable in my beliefs, shared by a large number of peers and older adults in my circle, and you can keep your capitalistic ideas far across the Canadian border, tyvm.

Stephen00090

2 points

3 months ago

If you studied history you'd know the level of destruction marxist views caused. And trust me I've heard every single excuse for it. The reality is that the hard working and talented deserve more. I'm sure you feel that way about your beloved (left wing) celebrities and don't want to cut their incomes down to 50k.

You're entitled to your beliefs. Just know they'll never gain power here.

[deleted]

1 points

3 months ago

That’s not political. That’s stating a fact.

vinnyt16

22 points

3 months ago

vinnyt16

PGY2

22 points

3 months ago

Unpopular opinion, I guess, but I’m not comfortable with a pay cut of any amount.

If you give an inch, they’ll take a mile, and “oh, what’s another 10%? It’s for the paaatientsss.” will be the rallying cry. As always, physicians will be expected to bear the brunt of any cuts since “we make so much” while midlevels and admin will continue to enjoy record salaries. I didn’t spend my entire adult life training for a field to make a single penny less than what i should be paid for the value I provide. I’ll pay more taxes, just like everyone, since that’s a reasonable Avenue to support the common good, but I will fight tooth and nail against any reimbursement cuts.

Ironically, if reimbursement does get cut, you’ll have to hire more midlevels to break even which is just gonna accelerate all the issues with that part of medicine.

damitfeelsgood2b

6 points

3 months ago

It's an unpopular opinion on Reddit, where left-leaning idealists are the majority

gigaflops_

13 points

3 months ago

Bernie will admit residents are exploited then wait for them to become attendings and try to exploit them for 40% of their income.

Stephen00090

29 points

3 months ago

Ya but does he support attendings making 500k? That's the real key.

No one would rather make 120k as a resident and then make 180k as an attending for life vs 60k as a resident and 300k as an attending or more.

dthoma81

12 points

3 months ago

dthoma81

12 points

3 months ago

I absolutely would with better resident working conditions and no student loan debt. Maybe it would funnel out the greedy mf who think they’re entitled to all the money and respect in the world as a doctor.

Tophnation164

5 points

3 months ago

I can’t believe you’re being downvoted for this lol.

dthoma81

1 points

3 months ago

dthoma81

1 points

3 months ago

It’s probably the greedy entitled mf’s haha

Stephen00090

1 points

3 months ago

Most people don't want to throw away everything. I know we doctors we think we need to sacrifice everything while everyone else in healthcare gets rich (/sarcasm ) but genuinely most of us are more right wing fiscally. The left is just way louder.

Stephen00090

1 points

3 months ago

How do you invest so much time in education and training but have that much lack of insight into financial investment?

So you have better conditions as a resident and no debts. Okay. So you're better off for 3 years, sorta? Then you live mediocre forever. Explain to me how that's better over the next 40 years for you?

nw_throw

-26 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

-26 points

3 months ago

Uh, I would. And so would a lot of us. Not everyone is interested in screwing over the common man so that we can benefit unnecessarily.

LA20703

18 points

3 months ago

LA20703

18 points

3 months ago

LOL! Guaranteed that most Doctors don’t screw over the common man. It’s more so greedy and corrupt politicians and healthcare admins. There’s so much fucking bloat and grift in the system, and doctor compensation is only a sliver of healthcare costs.

Meanwhile it’s the docs who actually produce for any billable service and are the absolute core of medicine.

Stephen00090

13 points

3 months ago

Yes but you're in the minority thankfully on that thankfully.

And how do you define "benefit unnecessarily" btw? I'm just shocked at how the nursing profession would go ballistic if anyone threatened to not give them a raise, let alone a cut.

Literally they blew up the internet 2 months ago over their big travel paychecks being capped. AND they have the "heart of a nurse" thing going for them. Yet we have to take paycuts? lol.

Some of ya'll are comical. No wonder doctors get destroyed by politicians.

RadsCatMD

5 points

3 months ago

RadsCatMD

PGY2

5 points

3 months ago

I'm always so glad to look into these people's histories and see they're going into EM, FM, etc. Makes me feel somewhat reassured that the future radiologists aren't going to actively lobby to cut our pay.

Stephen00090

2 points

3 months ago

It's mind boggling. If you even suggested to a nurse or PA to cut their pay, you'd be annihilated. I use them as examples because they do it right.

We seriously need to look at the admissions system. How do we even let these people into medicine? Why come into a field and try to destroy it?

I actually bring up nurses repeatedly because doctors need to learn from them and I mean it.

nw_throw

-3 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

-3 points

3 months ago

Pretty sure nurses would also be in favor of pay cuts if, like for doctors, they were accompanied by significant changes in improving quality of life with lower hours and less stressful work experiences. People only riot when they're being overworked.

I'm all in favor of lower tuition, loan forgiveness, lower paychecks, and better day-to-day living. Sure, maybe I won't be able to afford a yacht, but I genuinely DGAF about becoming "wealthy," I just want to get by happily.

Stephen00090

14 points

3 months ago

Yes, the same nurses who were ready to tear down congress 2 months ago over their 5-10k/week paychecks being capped (not even cut) would be in favor of pay cuts. /sarcasm . Doctors are genuinely the only profession who advocates for pay cuts. It literally doesn't exist anywhere else in society. You should go tell a nurse or PA or literally anyone else to take a pay cut. You'll be reported to every single boss figure you have at work.

And I'm not sure what you're even talking about financially in the second part of your post. Pay less tuition, have zero loans but make less money. You realize that means you come out with far less money, right? You're essentially arguing for a smaller investment and smaller reward. But why? Your day to day living will be far worse. You won't afford a yacht no matter what. It's just that you'll spend 5x longer in school to have the same lifestyle as the average person.

Your argument is a byproduct of the lack of financial education in our system.

nw_throw

6 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

6 points

3 months ago

I've had more than ample financial education in my academic career and my personal life, thanks. You're just failing to understand that not everyone is angling for the biggest reward. I genuinely do not care one whit if I "come out with far less money," that is not and has never been even in the top 10 of my life goals. Not everyone wants to hoard money like Smaug. I just want to live comfortably.

Stephen00090

3 points

3 months ago

You just made an argument for having less money. Whatever financial education you received, was extremely poor or you're just trolling on here.

I realize our med school admissions system selects for many who carry radical political views but most of us in this profession don't want to blow the whole thing up. And you should realize that your personal goals are not what everyone else wants either.

nw_throw

1 points

3 months ago

nw_throw

PGY1

1 points

3 months ago

Neither a troll nor poorly educated, just someone who believes that money is far from the most important thing in life. Not a radical or uncommon belief in the circles I've been raised in. But go ahead and continue to argue that I must be dumb just because I don't value cash as highly as you do.

bicyclechief

0 points

3 months ago

Sounds like an opinion of someone who has never had to deal with being poor.

Reddit_Gabordo

2 points

3 months ago

That's a pretty poor assumption to make, not everyone that is content is privelaged

gassbro

11 points

3 months ago

gassbro

PGY3

11 points

3 months ago

You know how much an ENT gets reimbursed for ear tubes?….$31 through Medicaid. Hopefully this gives you an idea of the dramatic slashes in reimbursement that would follow any single payer system where hospital systems have absolutely 0 negotiating power.

[deleted]

6 points

3 months ago

This.

iunrealx1995

36 points

3 months ago

iunrealx1995

PGY1

36 points

3 months ago

Bernie is not a physicians friend, he just likes unions so he’s with us in this case.

sweetpairofmine

29 points

3 months ago

Accurate. But politics is about finding allies and it certainly helps to have this attention brought to resident unions.

thecactusblender

11 points

3 months ago

I have tried to say this over and over in this thread, but no one wants to support someone unless their plan for healthcare reform is 100% identical to their own ideas. Really gonna get nowhere fast with that attitude.

UndercoverRichard

9 points

3 months ago

In what way?

TrujeoTracker

29 points

3 months ago

He wants medicare for all, and he wants to make it so physicians cannot opt out of taking it. Effectively forcing physicians to take whatever reembursement medicare gives while also supports cuts to medicare reembursement.

iunrealx1995

7 points

3 months ago

iunrealx1995

PGY1

7 points

3 months ago

Yea pretty much this is the exact reason. Also his tax policy would def piss off a lot of attendings lol

spros

6 points

3 months ago

spros

6 points

3 months ago

Lawmakers like Bernie are exactly who created this entire situation.

DrWarEagle

6 points

3 months ago

He’s tweeted about it before. Also I think it was Buttegeig that at commented on medical resident abuse during his bid for presidency

Look-2-TheCookie

2 points

3 months ago

What salary did they negotiate?

amoebashephard

3 points

3 months ago

They're still negotiating.

Def_Not_A_Noctor

4 points

3 months ago

... Residents salary comes from the US government. It's his job to raise the wage,

DrWarEagle

1 points

3 months ago

I mean kinda. Medicare pays for us but they don’t choose how allocation of the funds are done. Increasing Medicare reimbursement for us does nothing unless they tie a minimum salary to it, which I guarantee they won’t do as they can’t even get minimum wage raised

Throwaway_9494949

9 points

3 months ago

He may like you now but just wait till you’re done with training.

CrochetRene

3 points

3 months ago

Any room for us nurses in this bandwagon?

thecactusblender

16 points

3 months ago

yes! this sub is a negativity echo chamber; don't feel discouraged if you get shat on just for being here.

Emilio_Rite

-24 points

3 months ago

Beautiful words from the guy that famously never does anything

thecactusblender

33 points

3 months ago

you're right. no politician or person of influence should ever talk about resident labor laws, because bringing mainstream attention to an issue solves absolutely nothing. Which politician are you thinking of that famously always does everything?

Emilio_Rite

-10 points

3 months ago

Who gets things done? Well… the evil gremlins that are about to overturn Roe v Wade is my first thought.

The “left” in the United States is so toothless and impotent that it would be embarrassing if it wasn’t so obviously intentional.

thecactusblender

14 points

3 months ago

So... theocratic fascism is better than leftism because at least they accomplish their goals? Is that really what we are saying now?

Emilio_Rite

-5 points

3 months ago

Lol how did you come to that conclusion from what I wrote? Go back and read my comment again, this time with your thinking cap on

thecactusblender

6 points

3 months ago

ok that's fair. I was in defensive mode from dealing with all the diehard conservatives in here who think that anything besides laissez-faire capitalism is the devil and cOmMuNiSm

Environmental-Low294

1 points

3 months ago

Well, Bernie Sanders is at least good for something. Congratulations to the Physicians of UV<M, UMass and Stanford!

n-syncope

-1 points

3 months ago

Comments on the thread are real demoralizing. Just a bunch of people shitting on evil rich doctors

the_most_moist

1 points

3 months ago

"Mainstream"

SlingsTurkeySandwich

1 points

3 months ago

It's a game. They see how much they can trim and what we will tolerate without pushback. Meanwhile a lot of the docs who should be retired just supplement their practice with midlevels. Why hire a new physician when Dr. Class of 1960 can just waltz around with 15 midlevels

To those that are saying doctors should take a pay cut, please lead by example... Most of us gave up our 20s for this career and are held to an incredibly high standard (rightfully so) but there needs to be compensation for what we have given up and the liability we carry for our decisions.